Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[vishmoon]

Astra Mk3 Induction Could Shift India-Pakistan BVRAAM Dynamics, Warns Pakistani Analyst – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[Migflug]

Most of the purchases may well have been done in the Pappu Sr era but they were mostly negotiated for or initiated during IGs era.

Clutterji is devastating in his punchline & this is an indictment on Leaderji's defence policies. Apart from gestures & anodyne statements every Diwali or Dusshera where he marches off to remote locations to spend time with them being filmed to glory by every news channel in India he's actually not reformed the system SUBSTANTIALLY in any way whatsoever.

To make matters worse the only one effective DM he's had in his cabinet the late MP bolted to Goa the first chance he got with the result his predecessors or successors have mostly been place holders reflecting in the policies & actions of the MoD.

Apparently talk is the MRFA tender is to be revived . Furthermore defence reforms will entail that procurement procedures lasting a decade or more will now HAVE to be closed in a couple of years at the most , Israel style , where no requirements last for more than 2-3 years meaning that official requirements once issued by the armed forces are met either thru local mfg or by buying from external sources within 2-3 years.

Marry the 2 together & you could have an agreement on the MRFA by 2028 whereas we're supposed to go up against China by 2030 .

Why wasn't this done all these years then especially since the previous ACM Chaudhari was adamant he wanted the MRFA tender expedited ?

Shows us the seriousness of this administration on such a critical matter of one of the arms of our forces confronted as we are by 2 N powers at our borders where those borders are live & expected to get more alive if there's such a term or livelier , in the next few years.

Absolutely pathetic state of affairs !

The government got the cold feet after allegations of the Rafale scam. Had that not happened, we would have been in a much better state today.
One thing I dislike about this government is the staggered approach to buying stuff which has led to many cost overruns.

 

[Migflug]

Trick or retreat: There’s a grand deception behind Indian military shortfalls, and in this column

It is fashionable to curse Rajiv Gandhi for Bofors and more, but the truth is that 1985-89 was the only period in our history when weapons acquisitions were proactive and futuristic.

theprint.in

View: https://youtu.be/8XDhhY7wFCA

 

[randombully]

Astra Mk3 Induction Could Shift India-Pakistan BVRAAM Dynamics, Warns Pakistani Analyst – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

Could? Unless they buy a stealth jet.
It "definitely will".
It's not like Meteor limited to 36 rafale only

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Could? Unless they buy a stealth jet.
It "definitely will".
It's not like Meteor limited to 36 rafale only

combination of good radar, effective numbers can counter Sealth jets too. Air defence is expensive , thus pakfauj will have to bend a lot of infront of chings to get them. project kusha AD should be inducted in heavy numbers.

 

[randombully]

combination of good radar, effective numbers can counter Sealth jets too. Air defence is expensive , thus pakfauj will have to bend a lot of infront of chings to get them. project kusha AD should be inducted in heavy numbers.

Yeah pak even with 2-3 squads of stealth jets is not that big of a head ache.
Tho china is, because of of massive no. Of stealth jets and able to fully utilize their capabilities.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

> ACM has clarified that IAF is not looking at F-35, neither has received an acceptable offer.
> ACM has clarified PAF is likely to get a 5th gen bird (J35).
> ACM has NOT clarified what platform they want right now to counter it.

>Has IAF decided that Rafales would be enough for job ?

>Or are they wink winking GoI to pursue a highly customized Su-57MKI packed with Indian AESA radar/Avionics and weapons ?

Because there are no other 5th gen options that IAF can get their hands on within a decade.​

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

> ACM has clarified that IAF is not looking at F-35, neither has received an acceptable offer.
> ACM has clarified PAF is likely to get a 5th gen bird (J35).
> ACM has NOT clarified what platform they want right now to counter it.

>Has IAF decided that Rafales would be enough for job ?

>Or are they wink winking GoI to pursue a highly customized Su-57MKI packed with Indian AESA radar/Avionics and weapons ?

Because there are no other 5th gen options that IAF can get their hands on within a decade.​

Su-57 mki might sound most logical here, but how many can ruskies make rn, shifting production lines here would take time, then thereis time to modify the whole platform, if we start working on su-57 from today, its gonna take a decade.

 

[randombully]

Su-57 mki might sound most logical here, but how many can ruskies make rn, shifting production lines here would take time, then thereis time to modify the whole platform, if we start working on su-57 from today, its gonna take a decade.

Get few squads of ruski su57 from Russia, while domestic production and mki varient is being developed.
If deal signed this year, than then delivery of russian su57 starts by 2027-2028, production facility modification done by 2028-2029, the testing of mki varient completed by 2029-2030, production of mki varient from 2030, by 2030 time we should have received 20-30 russisn standard su57 from Russia, from then on start receiving mki varient.
By 2035, 80-100 su57 in service.
( 20-30 russian su57, 50-80 su57 mki).
Then amca production start.

 

[eastern_bhartiya]

Get few squads of ruski su57 from Russia, while domestic production and mki varient is being developed.
If deal signed this year, than then delivery of russian su57 starts by 2027-2028, production facility modification done by 2028-2029, the testing of mki varient completed by 2029-2030, production of mki varient from 2030, by 2030 time we should have received 20-30 russisn standard su57 from Russia, from then on start receiving mki varient.
By 2035, 80-100 su57 in service.
( 20-30 russian su57, 50-80 su57 mki).
Then amca production start.

russians barely have 2 squadrons of them, i doubt they can deliver us by 2027-28, mki variant is definitely not getting manufactured by 2030.

 

[randombully]

russians barely have 2 squadrons of them, i doubt they can deliver us by 2027-28, mki variant is definitely not getting manufactured by 2030.

They have 2 squads because that's what their vks ordered, after 2 squads with al41 engine, vks wants all other jets to come with al51 engine( delay happened, but now development of engine complete, preparation for full swing production going on), also Algeria has put orders for su57( with al41 engine, sources say about 14 are ordered) engine, which are currently being produced and helps the production line stay active, it's expect that by mid 2026, 6 su57 will be delivered to Algeria.
Su57 with al51 should start being delivered to vks from 2026, at the start delivery of su57 for vks will be slow, as they they Will produced along side su57 for Alegria, later su 57's production is planned to cross 20+ jets per year.

 

[randombully]

mki variant is definitely not getting manufactured by 2030.

What extensive changes except avionics will be In su57mki that it won't be produced by 2030?
Not to mention even if it turned out to be true, then we can just produced the mki varient with less indigenous content, and slowly increase it with different lot of aircrafr as production continue.

 

[Azaad]

The government got the cold feet after allegations of the Rafale scam. Had that not happened, we would have been in a much better state today.
One thing I dislike about this government is the staggered approach to buying stuff which has led to many cost overruns.

That was our preliminary reading of the situation. However by 2021 , we read reports where the then CDS the late Gen Rawat had voiced his displeasure in public at the IAF stance of insisting on getting the MTFA ( read Rafales ) in 1 shot thru a tender whereas the MoD wanted to pursue a piece meal procurement a la the MKI.

If they're going in for a tender at this stage they need all the abuse they get & more. This could've been accomplished anytime between 2016 - 2022 . What's the point in going in for it now ?

Meanwhile this is what the IAF chief has to say about the proposed F-35 acquisition.


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1898252376806445303

Hope that puts the matter to rest .

 

[mist_consecutive]

Did anyone pay attention to the nose if the crashed An-32 ?

The point which everyone missed is, its nose is modified to carry something, probably new radars (Virupaksha?).

 

[Migflug]

That was our preliminary reading of the situation. However by 2021 , we read reports where the then CDS the late Gen Rawat had voiced his displeasure in public at the IAF stance of insisting on getting the MTFA ( read Rafales ) in 1 shot thru a tender whereas the MoD wanted to pursue a piece meal procurement a la the MKI.

If they're going in for a tender at this stage they need all the abuse they get & more. This could've been accomplished anytime between 2016 - 2022 . What's the point in going in for it now ?

Meanwhile this is what the IAF chief has to say about the proposed F-35 acquisition.


View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1898252376806445303

Hope that puts the matter to rest .

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country. Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A. But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

 

[iNorthernerOn9]

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country. Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A. But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

For ex... we acquired 2x F3R... then we could have acquired 2x F4 & later 2x F5... and in future all would not have became obsolete at once and required upgrade at once... such arrangement not possible in large contracts(bcoz you cannot expect Dassault to put a price for Radars & Engines of F5 version which are not even in existence)

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

The 1st & last MKI rolling out of HAL facility were on exact same specifications... 14 yrs apart.

 

[Migflug]

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

Well if upgraded MKI to Super Sukhoi, there wouldn't have been obsolescence. Even after a decade, there is no concrete movement on that front. Many claim it was because IAF was hell-bent on having MRFA.

I don't think anyone believes we will get full ToT on the engine deal, but a co-development co-produced Sakhti Engine M88-3 variant would have been a better deal than complete import dependency like we currently have.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Su-57 takes say

BS... Engine tech nahi milega... jo chahe kar lo.

There's a lesson learnt from larger Su-30MKI acquisition... it's called "block obsolescence"... Entire fleet became obsolete at once... that's why MOD wanted staggered procurement with each batch having upgrades over the previous and then future upgrades in subsequent batches.

For ex... we acquired 2x F3R... then we could have acquired 2x F4 & later 2x F5... and in future all would not have became obsolete at once and required upgrade at once... such arrangement not possible in large contracts(bcoz you cannot expect Dassault to put a price for Radars & Engines of F5 version which are not even in existence)

In large orders all aircraft signed for are on same specifications... no matter if they take 15yrs to manufacture.

The 1st & last MKI rolling out of HAL facility were on exact same specifications... 14 yrs apart.

Block Obsolescence is a thing because it's a sub-standard piece of junk from onset.

 

[AbRaj]

34 Air Force accidents in 5 years, 19 due to human error: Parliamentary panel
The Indian Air Force
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/sto...-error-parliamentary-panel-2652755-2024-12-20

Human Error (Aircrew): 19 incidents
Technical Defects: 9 incidents
Other Causes: Including bird strikes and foreign object damage

Sign of unProfessional Airforce- Human error

 

[Azaad]

This piecemeal order is why we couldn't make a proper bargain with any country.

This piece meal order was coz Leaderji increased the CAPEX of the Defence Budget piece meal as opposed to exponentially. Had he been more generous things would've been different.

Otherwise with 25-30 billion USD to be shelled out over a period of 12 years @2.5 billion USD per year means except for the IAF which would've it good , the IN & the IA would have to make do with peanuts.

Had we gone all out and ordered 126 of them at one go, we could have also negotiated for the AMCA engines co-development, an M88-3 which could have powered MK1A.

As of now they're not linked to the MRFA tender. That was the case when around 2010 , not anymore. Look at the way the world is rapidly changing.

France which used to have a neo colonial empire in Africa has now been booted out by most of them .

Like UK they can't afford the high cost of development. I'd argue except for the US & China that's true of every nation but more true of some nations going ahead than others.

All these nations want India in their corner . What happened when the F/A-18 lost out in the MRCBF tender to the Rafales? Did the US kick up a storm. If they did we didn't hear it . Hence collaboration with India for the 120 KN TF is the harbinger of many more things to come to whosoever gets the contract.

But we have never had any strategic vision regarding defense procurements, it was always tactical. This is the reason why we are the biggest arms importers in the world.

Yes that's part of the problem. No strategic vision translates to ad hoc budgets which in turn translates to sub standard procurement which in turn jacks up the price & leads to longer delivery period , etc .

That's how it has always been except for a brief period in the 1980s when IG was preparing for the final showdown with Paxtan but got ambushed by Bhindranwale & her idiot son sh@t in his pants when Gen Sundarji was at the cusp of handing him a victory vide Operation Brass Tacks.

Since then Dhotis have been discreet at the cost of valour just as IG was the only male PM the Congress (I) ever had except for PVNR who was half man ....