Indian Special Forces

[KumaoniReborn]

Always the same Copium.

So if militants In JK are *so* advanced and sophisticated today why is the Indian security establishment’s response the same as it has always been?

Because it’s the Indian Security Establishment?

Daylight CASOs, reactionary operations, static positions, large scale flooding of units area ‘domination’

Because the “Indian Security Establishment” #1 protocol is for a peaceful solution with pakistan lmao. Did you ever forget that Salman Kurshid literally told the Army General Bikram Singh back in 2012 to lower his voice over the beheading?

Forget Afghan if it makes you guys happy, what about Northern Ireland? That has more parallels with JK at this point- were the SAS going around in daylight patrol to contacts? The IRA had a heavy bounty on any SAS operator for a reason- they were the only ones they feared

Lmao Wireless intercepts of militants had bounties on both RR, SF, and COIN officers. In 1997, there was a muslim major in the kumaon regiment whose family received literal death threats because he had eliminated 10 hardcore militants in 2 operations (with 0 cas to own troops).

We’ve all seen that PAFF video where they are systemically dismantling an entire Para ‘SF’ squad in the broad daylight. How anyone can defend this nonsense is beyond me

Point to someone who is defending this please. And we did not see any entire video. The Kandi Op video in may of 2023 that you are talking about, hardly any action was properly shown on the PAFF side.

And before you say this is what they are asked to do BS- you think modi/doval are on the phone issuing orders to brigades and companies? Politicians give mandates- it is firmly up to the ‘professionals’ how they execute

No one blames modi or doval for the piss poor performance of a para squad in an operation lmao. Everyone, including me, have blamed the generals for not prioritizing NVGs, not having correct intel (indian humint networks are currently shattered in J&K). If you don’t have any aerial resources to detect militant locations, ambushes with severe casualties are bound to happen.

People blame modi for taking a passive stance against both Pakistan and China. The army works for modi/indian government, not vice versa. The reality is if that the Indian Government pushed for a more aggressive policy with Pakistan and China (like they did in the 60s/70s), the army would follow suit (like they also did in the 60s/70s).

 

[abingdonboy]

Here i think your understanding of things are not correct imo

Modi or Doval dont look after such petty affairs.

The pressure comes from DGMO or COAS who put pressure on the Corp Commander who is a Lt General.

Lt Gen puts pressure on his Brigade Commander..Either Brigade commander or Let Gen above him decide that the Ghatak or Infantry units are useless in such high class ops and they are only worthy of overpowering a sorrounding enemy and shooting a RL.

So this decision is made to put Para SF.

A lot of pressure is put on the team commander directly from the Brigader or Lt General on radio..

Hello..ya whats the status..how much time..etc etc every few hours.

A Good officer takes the stand but some cannot which leads to casualties.

The op in Pampore is a classic case of such!

The young officer is dead and the higher ups are celebrities…reminds me of a cartoon where on one side General is having a whiskey with certificates on the wall and old parents of a matyred soldier are looking at the wall with a photo hanging of their son on the other.

During surgical strikes also such pressure was coming on from COAS to Northern Army commander who even told his radio operator to say he is not available for calls…As mentioned in an interview.

This is what I said

Everyone below the civilians is a security ‘professional’ empowered and responsible for these matters, most of them with decades of experience in this field

Outcomes matter, everything else is just noise.

If the Indian security establishment after 30+ years of this mess are still employing their ‘special forces’ in this manner that is all you need to know. The individual team on the ground is not the issue it’s how that team ended up in that position.

I’ve been saying this repeatedly- one day in the not too distant future people are going to have to do their actual jobs, be it China, Pakistan, SL, BD or god knows what disaster in India’s interest sphere.

These guys’ inability to be competent at their actual mandate is a real strategic limitation as it means the Indian state has very limited options in the same way as having a fighter shortage in the IAF

Brave men are rare but still relatively easy to find, but if you waste them as generalists what have you actually got? The square root of jack sh!t

Today India has no SOCOM, it has no airborne divisions, it has no real marine infantry combined arms force- just a bunch of guys running around dreaming COMMANDO with bandanas on their heads and potentially a gleaming black Tavor. Well reality always wins

 

[IWIarad11]

Here i think your understanding of things are not correct imo

Modi or Doval dont look after such petty affairs.

The pressure comes from DGMO or COAS who put pressure on the Corp Commander who is a Lt General.

Lt Gen puts pressure on his Brigade Commander..Either Brigade commander or Let Gen above him decide that the Ghatak or Infantry units are useless in such high class ops and they are only worthy of overpowering a sorrounding enemy and shooting a RL.

So this decision is made to put Para SF.

A lot of pressure is put on the team commander directly from the Brigader or Lt General on radio..

Hello..ya whats the status..how much time..etc etc every few hours.

A Good officer takes the stand but some cannot which leads to casualties.

The op in Pampore is a classic case of such!

The young officer is dead and the higher ups are celebrities…reminds me of a cartoon where on one side General is having a whiskey with certificates on the wall and old parents of a matyred soldier are looking at the wall with a photo hanging of their son on the other.

During surgical strikes also such pressure was coming on from COAS to Northern Army commander who even told his radio operator to say he is not available for calls…As mentioned in an interview.

In EDI pampore capt mahajan and his team was sent in just after they came back from a 72 h long op. Capt Mahajan took as many preventive measures as he could; fired on the walls with ubgls to make holes for snipers, etc. He had trained in CQB with seal team 5. But a top down approach was denied - heli was available but not given. NSG was stationed but not called in. But not a single hostage lost their lives. Hell even the son of Hizbul's founder was rescued. The corps commander of that time now writes books and does sympathy farming for his beloved lost soldiers on SM.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

sf doesn't conduct ops at their own will

Poetically Accurate descruption of the things that happen. Same was the case in kandi, all of the soldiers had a promising career but were pushed into action in haste. No the intel wasn't botched... it was the systematic pressure/ hastyness of higher ups and that fucked that op up.

View: https://x.com/psychewizard/status/1863476009586004249?s=46

 

[abingdonboy]

.

People blame modi for taking a passive stance against both Pakistan and China. The army works for modi/indian government, not vice versa. The reality is if that the Indian Government pushed for a more aggressive policy with Pakistan and China (like they did in the 60s/70s), the army would follow suit (like they also did in the 60s/70s).

At this point the politicians don’t have a choice- they are sat on a house of cards, they cannot afford a IPKF scale debacle where India is shown as all bark and no bite.

For a long time I pondered why with all these heavy stats and conventional heft India was so passive to even its (strength wise) inferiors but when you realise the answer it all makes sense

At least right now they can pretend to have some level of deterrence and dry powder, if they expose that the emperor has no clothes they have opened up Pandora’s box

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

In EDI pampore capt mahajan and his team was sent in just after they came back from a 72 h long op. Capt Mahajan took as many preventive measures as he could; fired on the walls with ubgls to make holes for snipers, etc. He had trained in CQB with seal team 5. But a top down approach was denied - heli was available but not given. NSG was stationed but not called in. But not a single hostage lost their lives. Hell even the son of Hizbul's founder was rescued. The corps commander of that time now writes books and does sympathy farming for his beloved lost soldiers on SM.

I know buddy and i know of many more such ops but….

 

[KumaoniReborn]

At this point the politicians don’t have a choice- they are sat on a house of cards, they cannot afford a IPKF scale debacle where India is shown as all bark and no bite.

For a long time I pondered why with all these heavy stats and conventional heft India was so passive to even its (strength wise) inferiors but when you realise the answer it all makes sense

At least right now they can pretend to have some level of deterrence and dry powder, if they expose that the emperor has no clothes they have opened up Pandora’s box

What? Who is sat on a house of cards lol? This reads like some laughable conspiracy theory that Indian Govt is controlled by the army when the exact opposite is true.

 

[Unknowncommando]

Kulgam Encounter

 

[KumaoniReborn]

I know buddy and i know of many more such ops but….

Laughable that India has NSG but won’t use them in ops where they need and instead overuse para sf.

Encounters that Assam Rifles did in 1992 are now being done by Para SF in 2024. What happens? I’ll tell you what:
>Para SF decays even more, loses valuable skills and knowledge and experience
>RR becomes unable to handle basic encounters on its own
>Indian army is unable to properly develop special forces.

This is the real Indian Modernization plan.

 

[abingdonboy]

What? Who is sat on a house of cards lol? This reads like some laughable conspiracy theory that Indian Govt is controlled by the army when the exact opposite is true.

That is not what house of cards means here

I mean that the structure that Indian leaders sit on is fragile and mostly for show

Effectively India is a paper tiger- Indian leaders can’t use conventional strength because it largely doesn’t exist

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Laughable that India has NSG but won’t use them in ops where they need and instead overuse para sf.

Encounters that Assam Rifles did in 1992 are now being done by Para SF in 2024. What happens? I’ll tell you what:
>Para SF decays even more, loses valuable skills and knowledge and experience
>RR becomes unable to handle basic encounters on its own
>Indian army is unable to properly develop special forces.

This is the real Indian Modernization plan.

RR has failed to take responsibility of all ops in Kashmir which is truly not what the OGs of RR wanted including my old man.

RR should have upgraded their Ghataks to a super infantry level.

 

[KumaoniReborn]

That is not what house of cards means here

I mean that the structure that Indian leaders sit on is fragile and mostly for show

Effectively India is a paper tiger- Indian leaders can’t use conventional strength because it largely doesn’t exist

And who is to blame? The Indian leaders and their rotten system of appointing army generals, and leaving procurement to the MoD “Babus” who know nothing about modern warfare as evidenced by the fact they order jetpacks instead of any modern nightfigjting device.

 

[KumaoniReborn]

RR has failed to take responsibility of all ops in Kashmir which is truly not what the OGs of RR wanted including my old man.

RR should have upgraded their Ghataks to a super infantry level.

Can’t really blame RR here tho, mostly a lack of understanding by the upper brass on what Paras are supposed to be doing.

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Can’t really blame RR here tho, mostly a lack of understanding by the upper brass on what Paras are supposed to be doing.

Paras still come on rotation coz they were never supposed to be there.

It was inefficiency of Infantry that made them do these ops.

 

[KumaoniReborn]

Paras still come on rotation coz they were never supposed to be there.

It was inefficiency of Infantry that made them do these ops.

Weird, to me it seems like RR isn’t even given a proper chance to do these ops

 

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

Weird, to me it seems like RR isn’t even given a proper chance to do these ops

Call it a lack of confidence …If RR was used these ops would have 10 times the casualties of Para in last 6 years.

 

[GhatiyaOperator]

Weird, to me it seems like RR isn’t even given a proper chance to do these ops

Cant say when this started but nowadays, RR and PARA are deployed together with RR forming and maintaining a cordon while a PARA squad engages targets inside it

 

[GhatiyaOperator]

Call it a lack of confidence …If RR was used these ops would have 10 times the casualties of Para in last 6 years.

But this deployment style itself has led to weakening of RR units which then results in even less deployments (only cordon duty) as leaders are not confident if these boys can handle even a basic encounter

 

[Kilomike2]

PARA SF

 

[KumaoniReborn]

Call it a lack of confidence …If RR was used these ops would have 10 times the casualties of Para in last 6 years.

I mean RR and infantry was used extensively in the 90s to deal with harder operations so Paras could do hunting ops around the LoC.

How far we have come down. Pathetic. We need to revamp RRs training tactics