LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[Vishnugupt]

It would take more than three and a half years to buy the used M2K from Qatar that Qatar wants to sell?

Even more. Because evaluating a junk is hardest job.

Buying used car needs more scrutiny than new car.

 

[mist_consecutive]

H

LoL,
Dude do you even understand that HAL did not develop TEJAS ?? It's ADA and Airforce project.

Instead of immaturely posting Pepe, just respond to my question that "what difference does it make for HAL if its GE, RD-33 or EJ200" ?? Their job is just to act as assembler.

FFS think a little instead of blind hate toward HAL, they have experience with Mig29 engines. If it was actually in their hands they would've opted Russian engine instead.

Airforce Jurnails will spread their asscheeks infront of foreign company to buy 200M$ jet . But they will spend decades to finalise the LCA deal.
Remind you that the "fanboy" has more industrial- technical know-how than your average joystick clowns of airforce.

Dude do you even understand that HAL did not develop TEJAS ?? It's ADA and Airforce project.

Its an Airforce project ? Since when is IAF owner of the project ? What part of technical decision making was IAF involved ? IAF is involved in testing and benchmarking only.

You didn't answer my questions -

Tell me these -

• Who is responsible for gauging the risk of choosing US engines when we all know they are prone to sanctions ?
• Who is responsible for delivering the product on time which is a national security matter ?
• Who is responsible for dwindling fighter jets when we need them the most, when we placed our trust & national security on Tejas and ordered it ?
• If HAL was not confident of product delivery on time, why cockblock MRCA deal and misguide MoD ?

Instead of immaturely posting Pepe, just respond to my question that "what difference does it make for HAL if its GE, RD-33 or EJ200" ?? Their job is just to act as assembler.

See the problem ? ADA is just a designer, HAL is just an assembler, then who is responsible for the Tejas project ?

If none of the PSUs want to take any responsiblity of anything then just tell we are incompetent leechers of tax money and can't deliver a single engineering project. At least we won't have the fake hope of getting indigenous jets, and we won't lose the next war due to the lack of jets which HAL promised will deliver.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Folks, just tell me, why is it called HAL Tejas ? Why not IAF Tejas ? Why is it HAL Dhruv, not IAF Dhruv ?

And why is it called Apple iPhone, and not Foxconn iPhone ? Brand Name (owner) - Product Name.

 

[Vishnugupt]

No source, nothing, one youtube video creating by a armchair fanboy is now our source of truth

GE engine was chosen (by whom?) to power Tejas as early as 2004 when Kaveri failed the tests. Thereafter you had ~17 years to choose/develop another engine before contract signing of 83 Mk1A on 2021.



Who is responsible for designing Tejas ? ADA.
Who is responsible for manufacturing Tejas ? HAL.
Who is responsible if orders are not delivered ? IAF View attachment 5064

Mtlb gazab, no accountability anywhere.

Tell me these -

• Who is responsible for gauging the risk of choosing US engines when we all know they are prone to sanctions ?
• Who is responsible for delivering the product on time which is a national security matter ?
• Who is responsible for dwindling fighter jets when we need them the most, when we placed our trust & national security on Tejas and ordered it ?
• If HAL was not confident of product delivery on time, why cockblock MRCA deal and misguide MoD ?

I think you are getting too much emotional here. Infact nobody blaming UN generals alone.

We all blaming GE and America but obviously criticising them wouldn’t help us.

People blaming UN generals for their lacklustre attitude. Generals manage to sign deal for Rafale in 1 year but for Tejas ( Any Indian products) takes years.

 

[Spitfire IX]

My question is who were the intellectual morons to choose amreeki engines for Tejas, even after knowing the unreliablilty of ameriturds ?

IIRC when the LCA project was started, it was intended that the production version would use an Indian engine. F404 was only intended to be used on development aircraft, I think. India did not develop an engine so LCA continues using F404.

India could have placed orders to keep -IN20 production going. India did not. -IN20 production ceased. India could have paid for a foreign OEM to complete Kaveri development. India did not. India has not announced a decision to do so.

Let's hope that the IAF is not needed to defend India actively in the next five years.

 

[shauryaman65]

Let's hope that the IAF is not needed to defend India actively in the next five years.

With pakistan getting jc31 5th gen jets, push that deadline to next 10 years until AMCA starts rolling out (hopefully)

 

[Hari Sud]

Whether like it or not the GE F404 and F414 delays are deliberate by US claiming supply chain issues or management re-organization issues etc. if these were problems, GE would have known all that before the contract was signed.

The Democrats who control the U.S. Whitehouse and Senate are strictly out to punish India for its neutral stance on Ukraine war and purchase of cheap oil from Russia. Although they forget that the oil ends up as diesel in Europe after refining in India yet the U.S. hates this arrangement. They want oil purchases from Russia to stop.

They manufactured Pannu Affair, then settled on commercial deal on GE engines to punish India. They know very well India has no other alternative. Hence this pressure tactic will work when all others have failed.

Either way the U.S. knows that neither French or British engine can replace the GE engines in a hurry, hence this is s successful tactic. There are no choices. Even if Democrats are soundly beaten on November 6th elections, the delay in placing orders in supply chain will change the whole schedule LCA delivery, if nothing else but by at least a year.

Hence there are only two conclusions; first, India has to take its lumps, and not much can be done about it but continue manufacture of the airframes. Second, find another alternative for AMCA engine. The GE should be excluded from AMCA engine consideration. In the long run it is a GE loss of a billion dollar in future engine deal. Also, reconsider the new fighter purchase contract. Exclude American F-18 and F15 from consideration. That will teach US a commercial lesson of close to $ 20 billion in next 10 years.

 

[Blademaster]

Whether like it or not the GE F404 and F414 delays are deliberate by US claiming supply chain issues or management re-organization issues etc. if these were problems, GE would have known all that before the contract was signed.

The Democrats who control the U.S. Whitehouse and Senate are strictly out to punish India for its neutral stance on Ukraine war and purchase of cheap oil from Russia. Although they forget that the oil ends up as diesel in Europe after refining in India yet the U.S. hates this arrangement. They want oil purchases from Russia to stop.

They manufactured Pannu Affair, then settled on commercial deal on GE engines to punish India. They know very well India has no other alternative. Hence this pressure tactic will work when all others have failed.

Either way the U.S. knows that neither French or British engine can replace the GE engines in a hurry, hence this is s successful tactic. There are no choices. Even if Democrats are soundly beaten on November 6th elections, the delay in placing orders in supply chain will change the whole schedule LCA delivery, if nothing else but by at least a year.

Hence there are only two conclusions; first, India has to take its lumps, and not much can be done about it but continue manufacture of the airframes. Second, find another alternative for AMCA engine. The GE should be excluded from AMCA engine consideration. In the long run it is a GE loss of a billion dollar in future engine deal. Also, reconsider the new fighter purchase contract. Exclude American F-18 and F15 from consideration. That will teach US a commercial lesson of close to $ 20 billion in next 10 years.

If India goes for more Rafales perhaps we can use the Snemca M-88 mk 2 or 4 or whatever it is to be used for AMCA and LCA mk2 as a precaution in case Kaveri falls short again. Right now we have to get Kaveri inside LCA mk1.

If us keep this sheningans up then India should say fuck you to America and buy Russian weapons outright and punish America for tit tat manner.

 

[Hari Sud]

If India goes for more Rafales perhaps we can use the Snemca M-88 mk 2 or 4 or whatever it is to be used for AMCA and LCA mk2 as a precaution in case Kaveri falls short again. Right now we have to get Kaveri inside LCA mk1.

If us keep this sheningans up then India should say fuck you to America and buy Russian weapons outright and punish America for tit tat manner.

Kaveri will never work. This team wholesale has to be eliminated. Alternatives are French or Russian. Keep the British out of it. They are American lackey. Start all over again with new suppliers.

Worst case scenario …. Go to the Russians. If American do not like it, then it is them who created disruption.

 

[Nutcracker]

If India goes for more Rafales perhaps we can use the Snemca M-88 mk 2 or 4 or whatever it is to be used for AMCA and LCA mk2 as a precaution in case Kaveri falls short again. Right now we have to get Kaveri inside LCA mk1.

If us keep this sheningans up then India should say fuck you to America and buy Russian weapons outright and punish America for tit tat manner.

Kaveri will never work. This team wholesale has to be eliminated. Alternatives are French or Russian. Keep the British out of it. They are American lackey. Start all over again with new suppliers.

Worst case scenario …. Go to the Russians. If American do not like it, then it is them who created disruption.

.
IAF clowns were the ones who previously denied the Kaveri variant with Snecma core for LCA.
There are multiple hints that how IAF had a say in the engine selection , yet some esteemed members think that IAF is clean from all sins.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Whether like it or not the GE F404 and F414 delays are deliberate by US claiming supply chain issues or management re-organization issues etc. if these were problems, GE would have known all that before the contract was signed.

The Democrats who control the U.S. Whitehouse and Senate are strictly out to punish India for its neutral stance on Ukraine war and purchase of cheap oil from Russia. Although they forget that the oil ends up as diesel in Europe after refining in India yet the U.S. hates this arrangement. They want oil purchases from Russia to stop.

They manufactured Pannu Affair, then settled on commercial deal on GE engines to punish India. They know very well India has no other alternative. Hence this pressure tactic will work when all others have failed.

Either way the U.S. knows that neither French or British engine can replace the GE engines in a hurry, hence this is s successful tactic. There are no choices. Even if Democrats are soundly beaten on November 6th elections, the delay in placing orders in supply chain will change the whole schedule LCA delivery, if nothing else but by at least a year.

Hence there are only two conclusions; first, India has to take its lumps, and not much can be done about it but continue manufacture of the airframes. Second, find another alternative for AMCA engine. The GE should be excluded from AMCA engine consideration. In the long run it is a GE loss of a billion dollar in future engine deal. Also, reconsider the new fighter purchase contract. Exclude American F-18 and F15 from consideration. That will teach US a commercial lesson of close to $ 20 billion in next 10 years.

Your first point: GE is reported to have told India that there might be problems adhering to the delivery schedule. India was not in a position to decline to sign the contract. I would like to see the wording of the contract. It might contain a rider along the lines of 'GE will make its best endeavours to hold to the delivery schedule in the contract' ie the dates are not guaranteed. Nothing political in that, just acknowledgement that dates would be uncertain, given production would need to be restarted and the world supply system was suffering from Covid-19 fallout.

I imagine that India is not flavour of the month at the moment in the US Congress (Ukraine, Sikh assassination etc) so there may be political pressure on GE to resume -IN20 production at a leisurely pace.

AMCA engine: there is no alternative to F414 in the short term, is there?

I think that US involvement in a new engine for AMCA would be a big mistake. I am pretty sure that the US is aware that it would be the country imposing the most restrictions and the whole idea is basically a non-starter since India wants (a) an engine for AMCA (b) sovereignty over the engine.

Excluding US types for consideration from MRFA would signal Indian discontent with the US, sure. Again, it would be a mistake for India to choose a US type and I suspect the US is aware of that. US types being excluded from a competition they would not win for political reasons would not be seen as much of a loss by the US. Better to leave them in and select another type IMO.

By the way, I would place the cost of a major OEM designing an engine for AMCA at an absolute minimum of $5 billion.

 

[Vishnugupt]

My question is who were the intellectual morons to choose amreeki engines for Tejas, even after knowing the unreliablilty of ameriturds ?

General Saab, this is only you can tell.

 

[Vishnugupt]

Folks, just tell me, why is it called HAL Tejas ? Why not IAF Tejas ? Why is it HAL Dhruv, not IAF Dhruv ?

And why is it called Apple iPhone, and not Foxconn iPhone ? Brand Name (owner) - Product Name.

Dost, when Tejas was a project it was told as a ADA Tejas. When Tejas start flying it was marketed by HAL so called HAL Tejas.

When Tejas become a product to fulfill the need of IAF it has been become IAF Tejas now (Operation jets )

Anyway, You question is wrong at the first place.

Whatever Tejas is today built after regular consultation with IAF. UN Generals consulted each and every step and their opinions largely incorporated into jets which actually led the lengthy development.

So Whatever Tejas is today is product of IAF requirements/Opinions. General wanted AESA radar HAL has to put into it. UN Generals wanted Israeli SDR/Derby/Jamming pod/weapon pod then HAL has to add it.

Similarly Engine also chosen after with due consultation with IAF. IAF was happy with it.

Now it's IAF job to think about how they going to overhaul/maintain the jets during peace time or in war. This called strategic decision.

Because in the lake of spare parts or unable to maintain Tejas operational then who will suffer?? Ofcourse UN Generals. That's Why HAL/ADA/GoI/public all preferred or advised indigenisation but UN Generals opposing it.

You might argue that why only IAF Suffer from non-availability?? Whole india will suffer. It could be but India have Nukes, India have diplomacy, But India have other armed forces. What answer will IAF have?? Zero.

In the end IAF Generals will be terminated like happened today with BSF.

 

[Hari Sud]

Your first point: GE is reported to have told India that there might be problems adhering to the delivery schedule. India was not in a position to decline to sign the contract. I would like to see the wording of the contract. It might contain a rider along the lines of 'GE will make its best endeavours to hold to the delivery schedule in the contract' ie the dates are not guaranteed. Nothing political in that, just acknowledgement that dates would be uncertain, given production would need to be restarted and the world supply system was suffering from Covid-19 fallout.

I imagine that India is not flavour of the month at the moment in the US Congress (Ukraine, Sikh assassination etc) so there may be political pressure on GE to resume -IN20 production at a leisurely pace.

AMCA engine: there is no alternative to F414 in the short term, is there?

I think that US involvement in a new engine for AMCA would be a big mistake. I am pretty sure that the US is aware that it would be the country imposing the most restrictions and the whole idea is basically a non-starter since India wants (a) an engine for AMCA (b) sovereignty over the engine.

Excluding US types for consideration from MRFA would signal Indian discontent with the US, sure. Again, it would be a mistake for India to choose a US type and I suspect the US is aware of that. US types being excluded from a competition they would not win for political reasons would not be seen as much of a loss by the US. Better to leave them in and select another type IMO.

By the way, I would place the cost of a major OEM designing an engine for AMCA at an absolute minimum of $5 billion.

We have to wait until Democrats are ejected. Unfortunately that includes Kamala Harris. If she gets the Whitehouse and Democrats are returned to the Congress in droves then Russia Su-57 or 75 is a major choice as no change in American policy.

Unfortunately reengineering of LCA 1A and 2 will be needed to accommodate French M-88 engine. Minimum time 3-5 years of rework and recertification is needed.

It is place between rock and hard place. Either wait delay of 2 years at GE or re-engineer to get independent of Americans and buy French M-88.

India did not create all the roadblocks. These are American roadblocks and India should let them appraise it themselves.

If Trump is returned to the office. It will take time to navigate the minefield the Democrats against India will leave behind. He might succeed to eliminate and dump all problems; but minimum time is two years. That is the delay induced in GE supply chain.

I am sure this supply chain delays have been introduced at the behest of White House. They quietly told GE to slowdown.

As a reaction to the above, evaluate Russian Su-57 and also American fighter killer MIG-31.

 

[Suryavanshi]

My question is who were the intellectual morons to choose amreeki engines for Tejas, even after knowing the unreliablilty of ameriturds ?

You had better options?
Aside from France, Murica was the safest option.

 

[Hari Sud]

You had better options?
Aside from Franec, Murica was the safest option.

Who is Murica?

 

[Suryavanshi]

Who is Murica?

Good sir.
America=Murica

It is a slang term used to refer to America. The slang mean to encompass and highlights the arrogant and ignorant nature of America.

 

[Bigshot]

We have to wait until Democrats are ejected. Unfortunately that includes Kamala Harris. If she gets the Whitehouse and Democrats are returned to the Congress in droves then Russia Su-57 or 75 is a major choice as no change in American policy.

If Trump is returned to the office.

I'm not very sure if trump does come back to power Indo-US relations will get any better..

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

By the way, I would place the cost of a major OEM designing an engine for AMCA at an absolute minimum of $5 billion.

i would say not less than $ 7-8 billion considering delays and inflation

 

[Spitfire IX]

Is there a problem with getting SAFRAN to finish Kaveri? The delay in F404 deliveries makes it clear that an alternative to F404 is needed quickly. Past performance makes it clear that sourcing an alternative to F404 from Indian resources will not produce an alternative to F404 quickly.

Yes, a delay in Mk1A due to F404 late delivery is now inevitable. Why not do the sensible thing and take credible steps to get Kaveri fixed?