LCA TEJAS MK-I & MK-IA: News and Discussion

[MirageBlue]

Assuming that Mk1A production will be much lower than predicted for the next year or two, what remedial action can IAF take? Can the remaining MiG-21 aircraft be retained in service or returned to service?

Look for second hand Mirage-2000s as an urgent stopgap arrangement to tide over the Tejas Mk1A not joining in the numbers required thanks to GE.

 

[MirageBlue]

RD-93 presumably involves re-design of the aircraft. Since the issue is time, that rules it out as a stopgap.

SAFRAN could surely get an afterburning Kaveri working but it would take time. Then it would need to be brought into production.

It looks inevitable that all Mk1A aircraft produced in the next few years will have to use GE F404-IN20 engines.


Indeed.

If GE's issues cannot be resolved, there will be massive delays, but the following options might need tobe explored:
- RD-93 for the next contract of 97 Tejas Mk1As. Those will only go into production post 2029, after the 83 on order are assembled.
- EJ-200 (suitably certified for single engine use) for Tejas Mk2. Will delay the program by at least 5-6 years though.

None of the options are pain free. Neither is the MRFA in sight nor the Tejas Mk2 or AMCA. IMO, we'll just have to bite the bullet and go with GE, but if they try to play around with ToT % for F-414 then the Indian govt. will just have to take some very hard decisions. The repercussions will affect US India relations for a long time.

 

[sathya]

If GE's issues cannot be resolved, there will be massive delays, but the following options might need tobe explored:
- RD-93 for the next contract of 97 Tejas Mk1As. Those will only go into production post 2029, after the 83 on order are assembled.
- EJ-200 (suitably certified for single engine use) for Tejas Mk2. Will delay the program by at least 5-6 years though.

None of the options are pain free. Neither is the MRFA in sight nor the Tejas Mk2 or AMCA. IMO, we'll just have to bite the bullet and go with GE, but if they try to play around with ToT % for F-414 then the Indian govt. will just have to take some very hard decisions. The repercussions will affect US India relations for a long time.

I feel painful alternative should be French engine in 90kn class for Tejas Mk1A, 110 kn class for tejas Mk2 & Amca.

 

[Spitfire IX]

No we need to go full steam ahead with TEJAS and the Kaveri program. That’s the only way to get it done. No looking back.

Yes. I have been suggesting that for over 15 years. Was it done? No. Sorry to look back.

Full steam ahead? I suspect that the Indian GOI/IAF/MIC setup is incapable of allowing any project to go more than half steam ahead.

Whatever, at this point the only fighter IAF will be receiving before 2030, I guess, will be Mk1A, in quantities governed by GE's engine delivery rate.

Looking on the bright side, a delay in F404-IN20 deliveries gives India more time to complete any unfinished work on other elements of the aircraft - it is rumoured that the Elta-2052 radar is not fully functional, also rumoured that certification work is not yet complete.

As I asked elsewhere, how is the IAF fighter element, at least 10 squadrons below strength, supposed to provide for the defence of India? The only deliveries scheduled in the next 5 years are Mk1A's. Or are there more Su-30MKI's coming?

 

[125mm_Smoothbore]

The Su57 was in nobody's interest but Russia's. Ditto for the Igla and Ka225.

looking at the situation of our airforce it would be better to keep on with the su-57

 

[Spitfire IX]

If GE's issues cannot be resolved, there will be massive delays, but the following options might need tobe explored:
- RD-93 for the next contract of 97 Tejas Mk1As. Those will only go into production post 2029, after the 83 on order are assembled.
- EJ-200 (suitably certified for single engine use) for Tejas Mk2. Will delay the program by at least 5-6 years though.

None of the options are pain free. Neither is the MRFA in sight nor the Tejas Mk2 or AMCA. IMO, we'll just have to bite the bullet and go with GE, but if they try to play around with ToT % for F-414 then the Indian govt. will just have to take some very hard decisions. The repercussions will affect US India relations for a long time.

GE have not said they will not deliver F404-IN20. They have said they won't be able to meet the agreed schedule.

What would be the point of redesigning Mk1A for another engine? It will not need major changes for Kaveri. It was designed around it. Once Kaveri is ready, integration should be quick, shouldn't it?

 

[Spitfire IX]

Look for second hand Mirage-2000s as an urgent stopgap arrangement to tide over the Tejas Mk1A not joining in the numbers required thanks to GE.

Did that 10 years ago and India did not want to pay the price asked. Looking again at the same aircraft and again India appears not to want to pay the price.

 

[Spitfire IX]

If GE's issues cannot be resolved, there will be massive delays, but the following options might need tobe explored:
- RD-93 for the next contract of 97 Tejas Mk1As. Those will only go into production post 2029, after the 83 on order are assembled.
- EJ-200 (suitably certified for single engine use) for Tejas Mk2. Will delay the program by at least 5-6 years though.

None of the options are pain free. Neither is the MRFA in sight nor the Tejas Mk2 or AMCA. IMO, we'll just have to bite the bullet and go with GE, but if they try to play around with ToT % for F-414 then the Indian govt. will just have to take some very hard decisions. The repercussions will affect US India relations for a long time.

I do not think that India is in a position to take 'hard decisions'. India has screwed up on fighter procurement. India has to accept whatever F414 ToT GE chooses to offer if it wants to manufacture fighters 2030 onwards (Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA).

PS Jet engine technology is a treasure hard won. No threats against the USA if GE will not transfer technology to India will work, any more than threats against France if SAFRAN declines ToT or UK if RR declines ToT.

If you want someone else's technology, they decide what you get. You don't. It is madness to think otherwise.

 

[Blademaster]

Yes. I have been suggesting that for over 15 years. Was it done? No. Sorry to look back.

Full steam ahead? I suspect that the Indian GOI/IAF/MIC setup is incapable of allowing any project to go more than half steam ahead.

Whatever, at this point the only fighter IAF will be receiving before 2030, I guess, will be Mk1A, in quantities governed by GE's engine delivery rate.

Looking on the bright side, a delay in F404-IN20 deliveries gives India more time to complete any unfinished work on other elements of the aircraft - it is rumoured that the Elta-2052 radar is not fully functional, also rumoured that certification work is not yet complete.

As I asked elsewhere, how is the IAF fighter element, at least 10 squadrons below strength, supposed to provide for the defence of India? The only deliveries scheduled in the next 5 years are Mk1A's. Or are there more Su-30MKI's coming?

It took us 20 years to get the GSLV program right. It’s not going to be easy.

 

[Binayak95]

looking at the situation of our airforce it would be better to keep on with the su-57

Et tu?

 

[Vishnugupt]

I lay the blame squarely on HAL. When GE was happy to give license contract to manufacture in house why did you not take it up - and then why did you not buy engines in time and prevent the line from shutting down.

Ab karo mazze.

I wondering what stopped you blaming Indian police for this mismanagement??

Engine demanded by UN Generals (The costumer), even today if UN Generals insist RD-33 then HAL will have to make the changes. Systems always chose by costumers. Like SU-30MKI UN generals chosen western system against Russia wish but Russia have to comply.

According to you, HAL should have bought GE engine before Tejas MK1a deal. Why?? UN Generals gave orders for 83 Tejas MK1a in 2021 (After COVID ) but UN Generals want HAL to buy engine in 2010. Now I can understand what kind of naval professional you are.

GE is always okay to give licence production to anyone who pay them but till 2021 UN Generals was busy playing hid and seek. So why will HAL pay licence fees of engine production when user ( UN Generals) are not serious in product.

Contrary to your claims, GE and HAL send multiple advisory to UN Generals regarding imminent termination of engine production by media news. But UN Generals chosen to sit on Tejas MK1a proposal for 5 years.

UN Generals even waited to dry up GE 404 engine production lines in hope to kill Tejas.

As I always say, Import airforce and UN Generals are sole reason for this pathetic condition of armed forces.

I'm not sorry for my words even if you are a officer in armed forces because if you lie to save your fellow man ass then you are also a problem in my eyes.

 

[Vishnugupt]

I do not think that India is in a position to take 'hard decisions'. India has screwed up on fighter procurement. India has to accept whatever F414 ToT GE chooses to offer if it wants to manufacture fighters 2030 onwards (Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA).

PS Jet engine technology is a treasure hard won. No threats against the USA if GE will not transfer technology to India will work, any more than threats against France if SAFRAN declines ToT or UK if RR declines ToT.

If you want someone else's technology, they decide what you get. You don't. It is madness to think otherwise.

This blackmailing wouldn't last long even if you are America or Europe.

NATO will have to fight more wars in Europe and middle East in future. So their blackmailing wouldn't last long.

One more aspect of technology denial can lead India to self-sufficiency but at that point West and America should forget any support from india for next 100 years.

 

[mist_consecutive]

I wondering what stopped you blaming Indian police for this mismanagement??

Engine demanded by UN Generals (The costumer), even today if UN Generals insist RD-33 then HAL will have to make the changes. Systems always chose by costumers. Like SU-30MKI UN generals chosen western system against Russia wish but Russia have to comply.

According to you, HAL should have bought GE engine before Tejas MK1a deal. Why?? UN Generals gave orders for 83 Tejas MK1a in 2021 (After COVID ) but UN Generals want HAL to buy engine in 2010. Now I can understand what kind of naval professional you are.

GE is always okay to give licence production to anyone who pay them but till 2021 UN Generals was busy playing hid and seek. So why will HAL pay licence fees of engine production when user ( UN Generals) are not serious in product.

Contrary to your claims, GE and HAL send multiple advisory to UN Generals regarding imminent termination of engine production by media news. But UN Generals chosen to sit on Tejas MK1a proposal for 5 years.

UN Generals even waited to dry up GE 404 engine production lines in hope to kill Tejas.

As I always say, Import airforce and UN Generals are sole reason for this pathetic condition of armed forces.

I'm not sorry for my words even if you are a officer in armed forces because if you lie to save your fellow man ass then you are also a problem in my eyes.

I am seriously considering to ban you. I don't see why I should tolerate your commie rant and putting all the blame on Armed Forces and act like PSUs are god's own messengers.

Not one of your single message adds value to this forum. You don't discuss anything technical, you don't come up with any sane argument, all you do is abuse others with your foul mouth.

This forum is not your theray session to rant & vent.

Behave. Consider this as a warning.

 

[Vishnugupt]

That will permanently end any trust that was built up in the US in terms of defence weapons being acquired. If there is deliberate sabotage to delay Indian programs, this Govt is not likely to take it lightly and the consequences will be damaging to overall US India relations.

This simplistic "India supports RUssia financially while Russia attacks its neighbour" is nonsensical. Ukraine crossed Russian red lines that were very clearly conveyed to it. Europe is taking all the possible benefit of Indian refining Russian oil that it can. So let's not act like India is taking the devil's side while EU and US are angels. They kept pushing Ukraine into believing that the Russians were not serious and now with Ukraine's economy and infrastructure pounded into oblivion, they're providing weapons that have a shelf life that was anyway going to run out. While Ukrainians are the ones losing thousands of lives. All for what? To be a part of NATO, when the Russians were clear that it was a red line that they would not accept?

Let Russia win this war in Ukraine then another Serbia -NATO war is just a ticking b@mb.

 

[Spitfire IX]

It took us 20 years to get the GSLV program right. It’s not going to be easy.

At this late point what matters is to get an alternative to GE F404-IN20 developed and into production, isn't it? If India would take many years to finish development, I am sure France/UK could do it much faster.

 

[Vishnugupt]

I am seriously considering to ban you. I don't see why I should tolerate your commie rant and putting all the blame on Armed Forces and act like PSUs are god's own messengers.

Not one of your single message adds value to this forum. You don't discuss anything technical, you don't come up with any sane argument, all you do is abuse others with your foul mouth.

This forum is not your theray session to rant & vent.

Behave. Consider this as a warning.

I'm sorry if you fail to grip the technicality of my post. You are always free to ban me.

Technically, I explain how costumer chose engine, not HAL.
Technically I explained, why HAL can't pay licence manufacturing fees without firm big order.
Technically I explained why HAL can't buy engine for Tejas MK1a before order placed by UN Generals.

Your problem is, You want absolute immunity for UN Generals from any blames but want absolute freedom to abuse others.

May be you don't read my post fully, or maybe you only understand Brochure information which I never post.

 

[shauryaman65]

looking at the situation of our airforce it would be better to keep on with the su-57

Russia might unironically make more su57s per year than we do tejas mk1a

 

[Spitfire IX]

This blackmailing wouldn't last long even if you are America or Europe.

NATO will have to fight more wars in Europe and middle East in future. So their blackmailing wouldn't last long.

One more aspect of technology denial can lead India to self-sufficiency but at that point West and America should forget any support from india for next 100 years.

I'm going to ask you a question:

Imagine you have spent many decades and many tens of billions of dollars learning how to do something. I come along and ask for that knowledge. You don't want to pass it to me. How exactly are you blackmailing me?

 

[mist_consecutive]

I'm sorry if you fail to grip the technicality of my post. You are always free to ban me.

Technically, I explain how costumer chose engine, not HAL.
Technically I explained, why HAL can't pay licence manufacturing fees without firm big order.
Technically I explained why HAL can't buy engine for Tejas MK1a before order placed by UN Generals.

Your problem is, You want absolute immunity for UN Generals from any blames but want absolute freedom to abuse others.

May be you don't read my post fully, or maybe you only understand Brochure information which I never post.

Technically, I explain how costumer chose engine, not HAL.

Show me any source where customer (IAF) insisted on GE404? It was HALs decision to go with imported engine after Kaveri failed the tests.

Technically I explained, why HAL can't pay licence manufacturing fees without firm big order.

MoD/IAF ordered the jets. Its HALs responsibility to deliver, not IAFs. The decision to choose GE engines (prone to sanctions), vs. Snecma engines (lower thrust) vs. RD-33 (an absolute garbage with high failure rate) rests completely on the manufactuer HAL, and Tejas will be evaluated on that basis.

Technically I explained why HAL can't buy engine for Tejas MK1a before order placed by UN Generals.

Technically, I explained to you that is not IAF's problem, its HALs. If tomorrow war starts and IAF is short on jets nobody will blame HAL for not delivering jets but IAF for not taking correct decisions of buying required equipments. Its the same logic. Everyone has a different area of responsibility.

Your problem is, You want absolute immunity for UN Generals from any blames but want absolute freedom to abuse others.

My problem is I still tolerate your bullshit in the name of free speech when its actually free garbage.

You are always free to ban me.

Thanks for reminding, this is your second last warning. Write meaningful posts without uttering abuses.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Russia might unironically make more su57s per year than we do tejas mk1a

Things are not that bad, are they? Not sure without checking but I think that Sukhoi has delivered about 20 Su57 in about 5 years.

What I remember GE saying is that they aim to ramp up F404-IN20 production to 20 a year.