Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[GaudaNaresh]

I'm still neutral, just technical, not taikng sides or concluding.


If Rafale can hoodwink, so can Su-57's sensor suite which is relatively newer.
But missile can be fired at both in HOJ mode. IDK about SPECTRA but i would expect Su-57's IRST & DAS to detect missile plume at 50-80 Kms. And J-20's fuselage is stealth but it still needs to lock on Su-57 to fire AAM which might be picked up by Su-57. All stealth jets have this challenge of not revealing their radar beams.


No i'm a tech analyst, i never assume anybody to be idiot. I'm not arguing on tactics, just conveying what i read in articles & interviews of real pilots, instructors, others in the industry. That's what our pilots would do.
But now against J-20, MRFA is useless & IAF jets along border states can be wiped out by J-20s any time, right?


what if a saw tooth flight pattern is used by Su-57?

Most people do not know anything about the detection game.
I am math dude with compsci/electrical engineering (not completed) background and even i barely get what is going on.
I have come to realize how the normal people think of stealth/detection/radar locking on/radar evasion etc: they think its harry potter's cloak vs eye of sauron kind of thing, where new MOAR BETTAR magic defeats sauron or makes gg to harry puttar's cloak.

For eg, they do not know that Niim BAARS is an EXCELLENT radar thats on the Su-30. yes, its old gen PESA radar, but it is literally eye of sauron powerful when its facking switched on and it WILL lock on u with a greater lock on active rate than even some of the best western fighter jet radars like we have in the F16.
Because how good your radar is also has one simple component that gets ignored in all the story-telling of these radars in the various defence magazines and forums (coz those stories are mostly told by non technical people) : wattage. As Cercei Lannister says 'powwah is powwah', so its also true in radar world - my 1 gazillion watt hunk of junk that may be the size of a house will see you like the eye of sauron against ur puny fancy AESA modular radar of 2 watts.

People often do not know one simple detail about stealth aircraft : Stealth aircraft are amazing at being stealth against OTHER aircrafts. They are rather shit at being all spectrum stealth and are actually NOT stealth to low band weather radars.
Yes, its low resolution but its still 'i see your fancy f22' if i got a simple weather radar around. Yes, thats just how the science works out and its not that hard to get weather radars integrated into static defence for anti air batteries to spot stealth from ground.

I mean, there MUST be a reason why despite stealth aircraft being around in service for 20 years now, its never been used to directly bomb a country with significant air defences, most notabl Iran.
Israel going through all the trouble of flying right to the edge of Iranian airspace with their F35s, lobbing bombs and facking off, instead of ENTERING the air space is the key story of stealth aircrafts : its good engaging non stealth aircrafts but its ability to penetrate enemy air space with significiant ground radar assets is questionable.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Also very very thanks to Shiv Aroor. If not for him all other illiterate dumbfuck dehati Journos who can't even spell "Engine" would absolutely have no idea or intention how adversely it would effect Indian Military Capability. Atleast people are talking which otherwise would have been limited to Defense Community only.

 

[narasimh]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JrJ7oDYQJw

 

[Ginvincible]

trengthening Air defences with top of the line Radars & EW Capabilities.

We have developed our own IRST... for Super sukhoi & MK2... why can't we place that on a 30m mast at all possible locations to supplement our radar coverage.

Many ideas can be worked upon.

We need stockpile of Pinaka-ER, Pralay and Nirbhay for standoff strikes... to offset lack of Airpower doing the same.

If F35 can be procured without much of strings attached then excellent, can be a stop gap till things fall into place otherwise this is what I'd say

• at least 10 squadrons of Advanced Heavy Combat Aircraft; not AMCA
• around 15 squadrons of upgraded Su-30MkIs with Uttam, Astra Mk-III and above average EW system
• around 25 squadrons of ORCA to make up the bulk of your force with a cost effective yet decent fighter. This also includes cancelling orders of Mk-1A and stopping Mk-2
• at least 2 squadrons of Phalcon type large AWACS

Do at least this, cut the clutter as much as possible. Rest we'll deal with 6th adversary with time

The AMCA is already outgunned as it is. We need a bigger jet with more internal space (at least 6 BVRAAMs + 2 CCMs). Something else I always disliked was the IRST sticking out like a sore thumb. The Mk1 AMCA design can no longer be justified in 2030+ scenarios. Reverse engineer and improve the AL-31 with metallurgical breakthroughs made by the Kaveri program. Squeeze out at least 160kn per engine and stick a pair on a bigger AHCA. And letting it fly without a comprehensive EOTS assembly is ludicrous.

If India was capable of doing even a fraction of suggestions like these, the IAF wouldn't be in the position it is in today.

The modern Indian state simply lacks the technical and bureaucratic competency to develop/procure modern defense equipment. Even just somewhat reliable budgetary planning for for future acquisitions is a struggle. I'm sure there are many interconnected reasons why this is.

The IN is the best arm when it comes to modernization, but even their plans largely revolve around getting under-equipped platforms and hoping that they can be brought up to spec in the future with refits. They also have more appetite to try untested local solutions since they have less budget.

There needs to be a major shakeup within India's defense planning and strategy management. I don't know what needs to be done, just that it likely won't happen until India loses its next war.

 

[GaudaNaresh]

If India was capable of doing even a fraction of suggestions like these, the IAF wouldn't be in the position it is in today.

The modern Indian state simply lacks the technical and bureaucratic competency to develop/procure modern defense equipment. Even just somewhat reliable budgetary planning for for future acquisitions is a struggle. I'm sure there are many interconnected reasons why this is.

The IN is the best arm when it comes to modernization, but even their plans largely revolve around getting under-equipped platforms and hoping that they can be brought up to spec in the future with refits. They also have more appetite to try untested local solutions since they have less budget.

There needs to be a major shakeup within India's defense planning and strategy management. I don't know what needs to be done, just that it likely won't happen until India loses its next war.

IN is also by far the most competent of the military wings in terms of fulfilling its base mandate of defence: barring Uncle Sam , even the vaunted PLAN will think twice to enter our littoral seas in wartime.

IAF is by far the biggest disappointment in terms of performance and vision for all the wings of the Indian armed forces, though make no mistake - i dont think our navy is as indegenous as it appears either - i am not sure how far along IN is in casting its own propellers, which is a high end elite level technology for naval industries and mostly imported by vast majority of the world from just a handful of vendors.

 

[Blademaster]

- i am not sure how far along IN is in casting its own propellers, which is a high end elite level technology for naval industries and mostly imported by vast majority of the world from just a handful of vendors.

It's the machining that's the most difficult. To avoid detection by sonar, you have to machine the propellers to avoid cavitation and producing certain sounds. That's why USN always cover up the propellers before releasing any public pictures of the subs and ships to avoid analysis of the machining patterns of the propellers as they would be a dead giveaway to sonar patterns.

 

[rockdog]

 

[Bleh]

View attachment 19848

Definitely a sniper-bomber... Middle engine will stay at high-AoA of dogfight, with that too intake, but will be very stealthy in a level flight!

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Most people do not know anything about the detection game.
I am math dude with compsci/electrical engineering (not completed) background and even i barely get what is going on.
I have come to realize how the normal people think of stealth/detection/radar locking on/radar evasion etc: they think its harry potter's cloak vs eye of sauron kind of thing, where new MOAR BETTAR magic defeats sauron or makes gg to harry puttar's cloak.

For eg, they do not know that Niim BAARS is an EXCELLENT radar thats on the Su-30. yes, its old gen PESA radar, but it is literally eye of sauron powerful when its facking switched on and it WILL lock on u with a greater lock on active rate than even some of the best western fighter jet radars like we have in the F16.
Because how good your radar is also has one simple component that gets ignored in all the story-telling of these radars in the various defence magazines and forums (coz those stories are mostly told by non technical people) : wattage. As Cercei Lannister says 'powwah is powwah', so its also true in radar world - my 1 gazillion watt hunk of junk that may be the size of a house will see you like the eye of sauron against ur puny fancy AESA modular radar of 2 watts.

People often do not know one simple detail about stealth aircraft : Stealth aircraft are amazing at being stealth against OTHER aircrafts. They are rather shit at being all spectrum stealth and are actually NOT stealth to low band weather radars.
Yes, its low resolution but its still 'i see your fancy f22' if i got a simple weather radar around. Yes, thats just how the science works out and its not that hard to get weather radars integrated into static defence for anti air batteries to spot stealth from ground.

I mean, there MUST be a reason why despite stealth aircraft being around in service for 20 years now, its never been used to directly bomb a country with significant air defences, most notabl Iran.
Israel going through all the trouble of flying right to the edge of Iranian airspace with their F35s, lobbing bombs and facking off, instead of ENTERING the air space is the key story of stealth aircrafts : its good engaging non stealth aircrafts but its ability to penetrate enemy air space with significiant ground radar assets is questionable.

Well, i never watched harry potter, but i got your point. Back in college i went crazy solving KCL, KVL with elecronic circuits.
> The newer GaN (Gallium Nitride) based antennas are said to have far lower wattage consumption. There is another paramenter called GAIN measured in Decibels which also indicate power & function of the antenna.
> I also wondered since long that weather radars & remote sensing sats might be able to detect the jet wake. This idea was shown in Hollywood movie "Under Siege 2: dark territory" (1995) where a particle-beam sat tracks F-117s.



But low band means lower frequency or higher wavelength, i googled & found it to be C band, adjacant to x band in spectrum. IDK if X band can perform same function.


Such radar might be difficult to fit in a stealth jet bcoz it is almost same size as of fighter radar. They're installed in all civil jets:

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

we really need tejas MK1A since about 1/4 of Chinese fighters are old mig21s and jh7 fighter bombers tejas will be needed in large nos to counter these and we will also need tejas for countering paki jf17s.
chinkis also operate about 600 j10s, though j10s are bigger their payload capacity is limited to only 5500kg tejasMK2 can easily take on these jets
china also have like 700 flankers, 225 of these are su27 for now we have our mirage 2000s, mig29s and mig29ks in this category(total comes around 160) , getting more used mirage 2000s should be a priority
more MKI squadrons will be needed for sure, if possible we should procure at least 3-4 squadrons more
to keep chinki flankers in check.

where did u get 600 j10 numbers?? chinese hv near 300-400 j10....yes tejas is needed as primary CAP (combat air petroling) mission role near borders. but i dont agree to buy additional 97 tejas mark 1a, if we will successfull to make tejas mark 2 production ready near 2028-29.....83 tejas deal had competition date near 2028, so u can take 1-2 year dealy now due to engine. so when we hv tejas mark 2 available, i dont think we should buy more inferior aircraft (tejas mark 1a). tejas mark 2 will be near j10 nd rafale capabilities (except range nd weapon load capabilities). so its best to make near 300 of them, instead of additional 97 tejas mark 1a.
so best option for us, untill 2035 (when i think AMCA will be production ready):-
1:- older su 30 mki nd upgraded su 30 mki = 300 fighters (16 squads).
2:- tejas mark 1/1a (should be upgraded in tejas mark 1a level) = 20+83 = 123 fighters (6 squads).
3:- rafale = 36 (2 squads).
4:- tejas mark 2 = 300 (16 squads)
5:- su 57 = 110 (6 squads)
total = 300+123+36+300+110
= 869 fighters or 46 squads.
42 squad requirements was near 2000 year. now we should hv near 52 squads to even challenge chinese (leave two front war aside).
that many aircraft only possible if we hv 32 aircraft per year production rate.
Algeria bought their 14 su 57 in 2 billion dollars. so we can buy 112 su 57 in 16 billion dollars. same amount, which we want to buy 114 rafale in MRFA. although 114 rafale will definitely cost us more than 20 billion dollars.

 

[vin pahadi (kumauni)]

It's over for Imported AirForce . There's nothing we can do , 4 th largest economy my a$$ ! Even if India becomes 2nd largest economy we'll still be 50yrs behind in defence.

50 years behind....so that mean chinese hv everything we hv in defence near 1974.
its funny why we stupid indian cry everwhere nd blaming government, drdo etc... u guys compairing a 18 trillion dollar chinese economy capabilities with 4 trillion dollar indian economy capabilities. these gdp size determine a country tax, budget etc. u should compaire chinese when they r near 3 trillion dollar economy (now due to inflation etc our 4 trillion dollar is equal to them). what was their defense capabilities than?? india can "starting" to become independent in defense etc, when we hv 10 trillion economy nd near 170 billion dollar defense budget. u should be thankful, what our capabilities even at 4 trillion dollar gdp nd 76 trillion dollar defense budget. live in reality.

 

[darkflame]

where did u get 600 j10 numbers?? chinese hv near 300-400 j10

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_People's_Liberation_Army_aircraft

Algeria bought their 14 su 57 in 2 billion dollars. so we can buy 112 su 57 in 16 billion dollars. same amount, which we want to buy 114 rafale in MRFA. although 114 rafale will definitely cost us more than 20 billion dollars.

again i will copy paste my previous post

Do Russians even have a a2a missile for su57, either way against j20 su57 has no chance, not only j20 has a lower rcs, it also probably have a better radar, chinkis also have devloped better a2a missiles then russia, su57 will just get bullied by j20.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View attachment 19848

It is a diagram by a Russian named "Paralay". I guess he is also an enthusiast. He frequently makes blueprint sketches like this. It has become almost like his signature.

 

[Ayan Barat]

In case someone is thinking to move it to different thread, there're nuances to discuss it here too. Ultimately it's IAF that has to deal with it.

Definitely a sniper-bomber...Middle engine will stay at high-AoA of dogfight, with that too intake, but will be very stealthy in a level flight!

I'm still bit confused about the dorsal air intake.
The two lateral ones are clearly designed for minimum RCS with maximum unrestricted air-flow (F-22), can easily sustain upto Mach 2.5. But then there's the dorsal intake; not sufficiently big for Increased air-flow and having DSI, pretty much Mach 1.5 type set-up.

There's definitely something more going on with that intake than we can see with our eyes. It can be some kind of cold air mixing system to lower the IR signature. It can be an APU to generator more internal power. Or all three intake merge into one before entering the engine and they're trifurcated into three only to make way for a large IWB on the fourth side.

But this is intriguing

View attachment 19848

I've already mentioned it's IWB capabilities

Now coming to the part where I think this new design really shines

But now with this (obviously pretty inaccurate) artwork we can really see the implications of this for us.

Up until now we used to have two crown jewels in our air-force inventory. One was the SPECTRA but the problem with that is that it's just 36 planes. And the other was this

A magazine depth of 12 missiles; even if the pK is reduced to just 0.3 then also you'd be taking 3-4 bogies with each Su-30MkIs.

But this new J-36 (as of now) completely negates this advantage of ours because now it can carry BVR-AAMs in numbers similar to Su-30MkI but with the frontal RCS of almost F-35s. If used properly in a pure Air Dominance role then these things can massacre enemy air-forces in numbers.

So as of now (just for a perspective, they aren't attacking anytime soon) the best defence we're left with are those 36 Rafales with SPECTRA and whatever protection is provided by those Israeli jamming pods.

 

[Patriots]

My 2 paisa suggestions....
Dill ko thandak milegi....

1. Upgrade all ioc to mk1a if possible foc to mk1a( foc s are much closer to mk1a though)
2 . Fast track su 30 upgradtion
3. Increase tejas mk1a production rate ( though engine is not available for now , but as much as airframes must be produced and once engine is available , should be the integration and other certification s be done quickly)
4. Mig 29 ulagration with aesa radar and Astra
5. M2000 integration with Astra ( as both mig29 and m200 will be there beyond 2035)
6 . Fast track the lca mk2 development , if possible. ...order as much as mk2 in ioc)
7. Fast track amca development
8. Fast track that jv with foreign oem for 110 kn engine
9. Certify kaveri with after burner ..
10. Fast track Ghatak ucav
11. Cats warior should be inducted
12.induct as much as Sam systems you can ( mrsam in production , akash ng in user trials , qrsam in production , vlsrsam in trial )
13. Opposition should portrait the low squardon strength of iaf an large issue in upcoming elections ....

14. Last option ....any jets from foreign OEMs will take atleast 4 years to be inducted .....
Better buy 2 nd hand jets, ...if you get in cheaper prices as m2000 mig 29s .f16s ..will be retired .....there is no option ....
Sooner or later India air force is going to be a airforce of oldies.....

 

[Ayan Barat]

Pakis will have 3 squadrons of stealth fighter by 2030. (Pakis have curtailed planned JF-17 BLK3 numbers realizing the dawn of a new era).

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]

BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

 

[E-195]

Do Russians even have a a2a missile for su57, either way against j20 su57 has no chance, not only j20 has a lower rcs, it also probably have a better radar, chinkis also have devloped better a2a missiles then russia, su57 will just get bullied by j20.

you over estimate the Chinese, J-20 is crap, the western observers rate it higher not because it is better, but because is been build in higher numbers, only that The Chinese love propaganda, but in real war the J-20 will be shot down

 

[vampyrbladez]

I'm still bit confused about the dorsal air intake.
The two lateral ones are clearly designed for minimum RCS with maximum unrestricted air-flow (F-22), can easily sustain upto Mach 2.5. But then there's the dorsal intake; not sufficiently big for Increased air-flow and having DSI, pretty much Mach 1.5 type set-up.

Theory 1 :

China wants to achieve super cruise (Mach 1.5) on a heavy fighter bomber aircraft.

To increase range and endurance, the other two engines can be pulled down to minimal and no afterburners and allow the plane to conserve fuel.

DSI limits speed to ~ Mach 1.6 and this is perfect for a strike mission in Guam or Hawai or IAF forward based airfields in Ladakh.

Theory 2 :

China is using jugaad to get a variable cycle engine configuration without actually making an engine like the XA 102/103.

Per the theory of variable cycle engines, to achieve low bypass for supersonic flight, the valves in the bypass stream are closed to restrict flow. To achieve efficient subsonic flight, the bypass is increased to its maximum value by opening the valves.

The Chinese are using a Low-High-Low bypass configuration for their 3 engines which would explain the placement of the DSI for the middle one.

 

[Patriots]

It's just usual Dhoti Shivering of Pakistan getting stealth fighter, we shouldn't waste time on them. One, they're too insignificant for our attention and two, comparison with them would give us a false sense of security. Even if they get 7th gen fighter then too they won't become an adversary for us; they've always been a security headache and they'll keep being that only.

Pakistanis are doomed because of their geography; a thin strip of land that shares a very long land border with India. You don't even need to use a single IAF or IN asset to deal with them; ground forces itself would be enough to neutralize not just their ground forces but even their air-force and navy. [obviously we aren't including the nuclear factor]
View attachment 19864
BrahMos, Prithvi, Shaurya, Pralay, Prahaar, LR-AShM...you've so many things that can be used to target pretty much every airbase, naval station, C&C centres; all from deep inside India. Also I've included just supersonic missiles and ballistic missiles as they've abysmal defences against these; include Nirbhay and the number goes through the roof. Moreover all of these are tactical weapons that we can use in numbers unlike say strategic weapons like Agni which would always be limited.

We don't have this advantage with us for China. They outrange our tactical weapons, they've good counter to our Ballistic Missiles (HQ-19), they have multiple platforms that're still unchallenged by us (J-20, J-35, YJ-21) and perhaps most importantly, they out match us in magazine depth (300+ J-20s).

Pafs won't be a threat ...any day..because of their low strength ...but if they gets more j10 or ...any chineese 5th gen fighters ...still it will be a headache ..for sure because in case if any limited skirmish ,they will use the best they have ....and out come will be definitely in their favour ...

 

[Brood Father]

My 2 cents , but investing now in MRFA would be the biggest blunder IAF can do in knee jerk reaction
We should focus now in Tejas Mk2 and Orca ..
AMCA should be accelerated and should be completed in war footing
And get indigenous engine sorted even if it means to give Safran / Rolls Royace the fortune ..