Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Indianhawk]

They had four stealth fighters in Tibet; they were withdrawn from Himalayan service soon after two years back the Rafale managed to track them in the air.

This is very interesting. Previously we heard iaf chief as saying that mki can track j20 iirc. Now you saying rafale tracked them ! You have any source on this.

What is the probability of j20 having luneburg lence !

 

[Ayan Barat]

Wrong boyish question posed….

Well I'm boyish so...

But on a serious note Sir, nowhere in my question I had mentioned China so I don't know why you're framing your answer around China. Not a single question is in the format of "How many...we've in comparison to China?"

My questions are rather simple and straightforward based on common sense; being the fourth biggest air force, how capable are we? Not compared to anyone but rather to the "fourth biggest air force" itself.

Like the biggest is flying six different stealth platforms, the second biggest is flying one stealth platform, the third biggest is flying four stealth platforms and the fifth biggest is flying one stealth platform.

So how many are being flown by the fourth biggest amongst these?

 

[Indianhawk]

Discovered this new forum recently.
Checking in on defence forums after a long time.

Surprisingly not much r**di Rona after Chinese flying samosa. Has the forum matured ??

 

[Ayan Barat]

Has the forum matured ??

Spoiler: Absolutely not

We're just somewhere around here, so it's bit hard to notice

 

[Indianhawk]

Well I'm boyish so...

But on a serious note Sir, nowhere in my question I had mentioned China so I don't know why you're framing your answer around China. Not a single question is in the format of "How many...we've in comparison to China?"

My questions are rather simple and straightforward based on common sense; being the fourth biggest air force, how capable are we? Not compared to anyone but rather to the "fourth biggest air force" itself.

Like the biggest is flying six different stealth platforms, the second biggest is flying one stealth platform, the third biggest is flying four stealth platforms and the fifth biggest is flying one stealth platform.

So how many are being flown by the fourth biggest amongst these?

No point in India getting any stealth jet.
The Chinese have already cancelled stealth before they flew their new stealth jet.

Don't believe me well from the horse's mouth.

China reveals anti-stealth radar with new technical pattern - Global Times

www.globaltimes.cn

It's deja vu all over again. Remember when Chinese presented us with carrier killer missiles which will make us carriers obsolete but then Chinese keep building aircraft carriers themselves.

Our Chinese friends are both doctors and patients at the same time. They have solution to all our dilemmas.

If we can't copy their stealth jets we can copy their anti stealth radar !!

Check mate chinkies !!

 

[shade2]

Discovered this new forum recently.
Checking in on defence forums after a long time.

Surprisingly not much r**di Rona after Chinese flying samosa. Has the forum matured ??

Nothing much except RR can be done on our side, what do you expect?

IAF/MoD/Defense ministry politicians and Gobiji himself do not care.

 

[Ayan Barat]

The mainstream media will never tell you but one very good way of wasting your time is trying to count missiles. Recently there was some chatter about low numbers of Astra orders so tried estimating things...

R-73 Archer ; average short range missile
Orders started from early 90s, continued till 2019; almost 5,000 procured in total. Primary WVR-AAM.

R-27 Alamo; average BVR-AAM, WVR-AAM
Orders started from early 90s, continued till 2019; around 4,000 procured in total. Primary BVR-AAMs. Variant wise breakdown is tough to find so lets say 3:1

Side Note : Only because of this high number (9,000) IAF is able to flaunt R-73/27s as SAMAR.

R-77 Adder; there are issues but overall an okay BVR-AAM
From 1996 to 2019, some 2,000 were procured. Basically complements/replaces the R-27s because of the substantial number

Meteor; currently one of best BVR-AAMs in the world
Approximately 250 came with the Rafale package. Similar or slightly more can be expected to come with the Naval Rafale order but that should all as SFDR would soon start to replace it.

ASRAAM; one of the best WVR-AAM
384 came for Jags but things go as planned then soon local production would start and we can expect numbers similar to R-73; the weapon it would replace.

Python 4/5; one of best WVR-AAM, extremely maneuverable
At least 100 were ordered as a stop-gap to R-73s on 2007. The missiles in SPYDER SAM can also be repurposed.

MICA; variant is unclear but IR variant is one of best WVR-AAM
Around 500 ordered in 2012 for Mirages. Pretty sure similar number came in Rafale package.

Derby; quite good BVR-AAM
Unspecified number ordered with no further orders as Astra was just around the corner; let's say 100. Similar to Pythons, the SAMs from SPYDER can be used.

Astra; good to one of best in its category depending on the variant
Around 600 ordered, further orders may have slowed down as there was a better option in the form of Mk-II

So, in short...
• 6,000 average heat seekers (R-73, R-27)
• 1,500 best in class heat seekers (ASRAAM, MICA-IR, Python)
• 5,000 average BVR-AAMs (R-77, R-27)
• 700 best in class BVR-AAMs (Astra, Derby)
• 250 best BVR-AAMs (Meteor)

NOTE : These are the maximum numbers procured, not the current inventory. Current inventory can be as little as half of these numbers given these starts from late 80s and missiles regularly gets depleted in training.

Based on these we can kind of extrapolate the future numbers
• around 3-4,000 ASRAAM; numbers may feel low compared to R-73 but in future WVR-AAMs would be limited to just cruise missile and UAV engagments.
• around 6,000 Astra with most of them being Mk-II as except for cost there isn't any reason to procure Mk-I
• around 1,000 Astra-III. Extremely tempting to get more of these but a new SFDR would be expensive than a vanilla rocket.

As always, my numbers can be extremely off from reality because estimating an inventory is never an accurate affair. So feel free to correct it.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Assuming IDRW didn't pull it out of nowhere, what is the IAF thinking.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Assuming IDRW didn't pull it out of nowhere, what is the IAF thinking.
View attachment 20879

"A senior Indian Air Force (IAF) official, speaking to idrw.org on the condition of anonymity"

Yeah, I'll take things that never happened for $500, Alex.

It would be so funny if this senior IAF official, who talked on condition of anonymity turns out to be Bushra from headquarters in Aabpara

 

[rockdog]

Wrong boyish question posed….

Pose yourself the question that how many AWACS or Refueller or electronic warfare planes or stealth fighters the Chinese can divert from their Eastern front at China Sea to the Himalayas. That is good way of analysis than copying their propaganda numbers.

I have one or two answers for you….. They have two inferior AWACS in Tibet and Sinkiang, one each. Their engines are mostly under repair hence a third one is diverted.

They have one refueller and one standby in the Himalayas.

They had four stealth fighters in Tibet; they were withdrawn from Himalayan service soon after two years back the Rafale managed to track them in the air. Newer replacements will arrive whenever the newer one is available. The previous one are still there but these do not fly closer to the Himalayas.

That kind of military hardware is unlikely to scare the Indian armed forces who have fought 4 large scale wars and Chinese have fought none after 1962. They lost 1978 war with Vietnam. That they do not want to talk about.

Quite bizarre claim, any wise people willing to overestimate rivalry rather than underestimation.
Your claims didn't bring with any evidence and analysis, just 2nd 3rd hand news & sterotype, if all IAF officiers thinking the way like this, it would be good news to PLAAF.


Even our civil war gaming community when they doing the simulation between China and Inida conflict, like to make India forces 30% stronger, to make sure any worst case scenarios would be predicted.

The simuations shows around 12 - 24 J20 would significantly increase the IAF losses, and made PLAAF built strong air superiority.


Conflict simulation on Tibet region.




Conflict simulation on Karachi



Conflict simulation in A&N island.

 

[Azaad]

Quite bizarre claim, any wise people willing to overestimate rivalry rather than underestimation.
Your claims didn't bring with any evidence and analysis, just 2nd 3rd hand news & sterotype, if all IAF officiers thinking the way like this, it would be good news to PLAAF.


Even our civil war gaming community when they doing the simulation between China and Inida conflict, like to make India forces 30% stronger, to make sure any worst case scenarios would be predicted.

The simuations shows around 12 - 24 J20 would significantly increase the IAF losses, and made PLAAF built strong air superiority.


Conflict simulation on Tibet region.

View attachment 20884


Conflict simulation on Karachi
View attachment 20887
View attachment 20888

Conflict simulation in A&N island.
View attachment 20885
View attachment 20886

You're civil wargaming community is much better informed than you are . They're not considering 30% stronger IAF out of the goodness of their heart but to make the simulation more realistic .

Do you know why ? It's because the J-20s & other FAs can't take off with the same payloads from Tibet as from other parts of China due to the low density of air over the Tibetan plateau forcing these Fighter Aircrafts to take off with payloads amounting to a third - half less than they can normally carry .

It's precisely for this reason that even civil airliners on international flights avoid flying over Tibet among a host of other reasons.

Google Search

Besides your J-20 are semi stealth Fighter Aircrafts not full stealth like the F-22 or the F-35. Neither is it equipped with a 5th Gen TF - the WS-15 which is still WiP or Work in Progress . Perhaps it's just about completed its certification & is being mass produced. Your true stealth capabilities will come from the J-36. That's a good 10-12 years away. That's the real danger to the IAF for apart from stealth it has long endurance & can easily carry a good enough payload from Tibet itself .

 

[rockdog]

You're civil wargaming community is much better informed than you are . They're not considering 30% stronger IAF out of the goodness of their heart but to make the simulation more realistic .

Do you know why ? It's because the J-20s & other FAs can't take off with the same payloads from Tibet as from other parts of China due to the low density of air over the Tibetan plateau forcing these Fighter Aircrafts to take off with payloads amounting to a third - half less than they can normally carry .

It's precisely for this reason that even civil airliners on international flights avoid flying over Tibet among a host of other reasons.

Google Search

Nop, those factors were considered into database. CMO even considered IRST parameters, FLIR during the simulation.

1. Conflict simulation on Tibet region.
Fleet mostly took off from Hotan

2. Conflict simulation on Karachi
Fleet mostly took off from air bases in Pakistan

3. Conflict simulation in A&N island.
Fleet mostly took off from Yunnan provinces.

 

[Ayan Barat]

It's because the J-20s & other FAs can't take off with the same payloads from Tibet as from other parts of China due to the low density of air over the Tibetan plateau forcing these Fighter Aircrafts to take off with payloads amounting to a third - half less than they can normally carry .

Absolutely correct but not for J-20s.

The normal carry for stealth fighters is only that much what it can internally carry, not it's absolutely total payload. For J-20 it's hardly 1.5t (4x PL-15s of 250kg each and 2x PL-10s of 100kg each); a fraction of its total payload.

 

[rockdog]

Absolutely correct but not for J-20s.

The normal carry for stealth fighters is only that much what it can internally carry, not it's absolutely total payload. For J-20 it's hardly 1.5t (4x PL-15s of 250kg each and 2x PL-10s of 100kg each); a fraction of its total payload.

Actually, in one simulaton. There are only 3 aribases in Tibet, but others and most advanced figthers were deployed in Qinghai, Sichuan, Xinjiang provinces.

Plus, the Linzhi airport in Tibet, is “only” 2946m, since it's the nearest airbase by LAC, most aircraft are drones:

Linzhi Airport: 8 CH-4B Rainbow Drone, 8 WD-1K Winged Dragon Drone

Shigatse Air Force Base: 8 J-11D, 8 J-11B, 14 J-10A
Lhasa Gongga International Airport: 8 J-11D, 8 J-11B, 8 J-10C, 12 JH-7A, 6 JD-16 EW
Linzhi Airport: 8 CH-4B Rainbow Drone, 8 WD-1K Winged Dragon Drone
Changdu Bangda Airport: 8 J-10C, 8 J-10A, 12 JH-7A
Panzhihua airbase: 12 Su-35K
Golmud Air Force Base: 8 J-20, 8 J-10A, 8 JH-7A, 6 HY-6U Refueller, 3 Y-9G Cub EW, 3 Y-9 Cub (KJ-500), 6 EA-03 (FLIR)
Chengdu Air Force Base: 8 J-20, 8 J-10A, 12 JH-7A, 3 A-50 (KJ-2000)
Chongqing Baishiyi Air Force Base: 6 J-8IE, 16 H-6K, 2 IL-78 Refueller

Chinese war gaming community is pretty professional from my POV, i m wondering is there any similar from India side.

This map shows the airbases.

 

[Azaad]

Nop, those factors were considered into database. CMO even considered IRST parameters, FLIR during the simulation.

1. Conflict simulation on Tibet region.
Fleet mostly took off from Hotan

2. Conflict simulation on Karachi
Fleet mostly took off from air bases in Pakistan

3. Conflict simulation in A&N island.
Fleet mostly took off from Yunnan provinces.

1.) If those flights took off from Hotan , they're targeting Ladakh & J&K . Hotan itself is vulnerable to the IAF. Look at the dispersed bases not just in that region in question but also surrounding regions as far as the IAF is concerned.

2.) Immaterial. Paxtan is not going to base PLAAF nor will they be part of this . If they do they'd be nuked . What's more they know it !

3.) That's where we'd be basing the Rafale M along with the MKI.

It's going to be a roughly even contest . It's not going to be a one sided affair your civilian defence enthusiasts think it'd be.

 

[Azaad]

Absolutely correct but not for J-20s.

The normal carry for stealth fighters is only that much what it can internally carry, not it's absolutely total payload. For J-20 it's hardly 1.5t (4x PL-15s of 250kg each and 2x PL-10s of 100kg each); a fraction of its total payload.

I meant the total carrying capacity including fuel. J-20s have a 2000 kms combat range other than while operating from Tibet. That's the reason they've been practising air refuelling over Tibet flying with partial load of fuel .

 

[E-195]

Nop, those factors were considered into database. CMO even considered IRST parameters, FLIR during the simulation.

1. Conflict simulation on Tibet region.
Fleet mostly took off from Hotan

2. Conflict simulation on Karachi
Fleet mostly took off from air bases in Pakistan

3. Conflict simulation in A&N island.
Fleet mostly took off from Yunnan provinces.

you will lose in real war because what really will change a war is Lasers destroying ICBMs and Biological weapons to clean large armies, remember the Russians claim Genetic weapons exist

'Targeting Russians But Safe for Americans': What Bioweapons is the Pentagon Developing?​

'Targeting Russians But Safe for Americans': What Bioweapons is the Pentagon Developing?

The US is conducting military biological research aimed at discovering new harmful bacteria and viruses tailored to infect certain races, nationalities and even residents of specific regions, Igor Korotchenko, military analyst and editor-in-chief of "National Defense" magazine told Sputnik.

sputnikglobe.com

The U.S. Military Wants to Kill Nuclear-Armed ICBMs with Lasers​

Here's how.

The U.S. Military Wants to Kill Nuclear-Armed ICBMs with Lasers

The Missile Defense Agency is engineering air-launched, high-powered, long-range laser weapons to destroy attacking nuclear-armed Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles during launch and even as they travel through space — bringing new levels of offensive and defensive layered firepower to existing...

nationalinterest.org

Chinese doritos will not change anything if the Americans get what they are researching the face of war will change in ways no one expects

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDioNFLaKCU

Lockheed Martin Laser Breakthroughs Could Signal A Turning Point For Missile Defense​

Lockheed Martin Laser Breakthroughs Could Signal A Turning Point For Missile Defense

High-energy lasers could provide an affordable means of defeating missile attacks that would overwhelm existing defenses.

www.forbes.com

Air defense for $13 a shot? How lasers could revolutionize the way militaries counter enemy missiles and drones​

https://edition.cnn.com/2024/03/13/europe/britain-air-defense-laser-dragonfire-intl-hnk-ml/index.html

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLbTnAqTPpU

 

[shade2]

Found this on twitter.


View: https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1876256686262149582

It makes sense, in place of (((offsets))) in exchange for 36 IAF + 26 IN Rafales we get access to specific baguette tech items/support

1. Dassault design support for TEDBF/ORCA( )
2. SSN class pumpjet tech
3. Safran support for IMRH engine, spoon feeding for our DRDO boys basically to make the whole engine
4. Same as the above but for whatever is Kaveri's tech related issue
5. Anything else y'all nibbiars think we can get from Frenchies?

inb4 anyone misunderstands, we will pay for these but ofc for that these have to be on offer first.

 

[E-195]

UK, Italy invite India to join GCAP 6th generation fighter programme
Defence Forces Newsroom December 28, 2024 62

In a move that could significantly reshape the landscape of international defence collaboration, the UK and Italy have expressed their support for inviting India to join the Global Combat Air Programme (GCAP). This ambitious initiative, which already includes Japan, aims to develop a sixth-generation stealth fighter by 2035. This is not the first time India has been approached to participate. Two years ago, the UK extended an initial invitation for India to join Project Tempest, the precursor to the current GCAP.

Reino Unido e Itália convidam Índia a participar do programa do caça de 6ª geração GCAP - Poder Aéreo – Aviação, Forças Aéreas, Indústria Aeroespacial e de Defesa

Em um movimento que poderá remodelar significativamente o cenário da colaboração internacional de defesa, o Reino Unido e a Itália expressaram seu apoio para convidar a índia aparticipar do Programa Global de Combate Aéreo (GCAP). Esta iniciativa ambiciosa, que já inclui o Japão, visa...

www.aereo.jor.br

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Found this on twitter.


View: https://x.com/cvkrishnan/status/1876256686262149582

It makes sense, in place of (((offsets))) in exchange for 36 IAF + 26 IN Rafales we get access to specific baguette tech items/support

1. Dassault design support for TEDBF/ORCA( )
2. SSN class pumpjet tech
3. Safran support for IMRH engine, spoon feeding for our DRDO boys basically to make the whole engine
4. Same as the above but for whatever is Kaveri's tech related issue
5. Anything else y'all nibbiars think we can get from Frenchies?

inb4 anyone misunderstands, we will pay for these but ofc for that these have to be on offer first.

You are assuming that they will honor them in first place.