Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[COLDHEARTED AVIATOR]

As expected what was supposed to be a private conversation ended being recorded public humiliation at airshow attended by delegations from the world over, now that the shitshow has begun every Tom, Dick and Harry with their half-to-zero-to-nonexistent technical knowledge and zero understanding of ground realities will be coming up with their own prophecies and an ignorant crowd with zero understanding of professional conduct and with their love for making sweeping idiotic statements will cheer them on gleefully.

It didnt seem like the chief wanted to have a private conversation.He very well knew there are cameras all around and recording and as a matter of fact when he finished he even taunted the camera team saying you must have got your bite.

 

[ezsasa]

Well it’s not a great example to compare airlines to defence manufacturing.

All airlines are penny pinchers and most of the airlines own privately goes belly up or had chapter 11 bankruptcy.

Better example would be comparing the 155 gun between private and psu, I don’t think still the 155 45 gun has been delivered by the psu.

K9 will be all delivered on time, I think it’s time for government to break the monopoly and may the better performer take the contract.

I am glad that atleast in shipyard we have competition now, L&T will big role in future though they are out of the submarine race now.

when i am trying to keep the conversation around aircrafts and indian companies executing aircraft related contracts, you want to expand this convo to land systems which are relatively less complex contracts to execute, and naval contracts which are a result of IN taking decision to develop domestic production capabilities decades ago, then this convo would go in circles. not interested in expanding the convo beyond a point.

i think i have conveyed what i wanted to in my earlier posts.

any info on this?

is there publicly available information on the business of fighter jet integration in Indian context?

like the number of lead times, dependencies, number of vendors, today mandays, total project timeline etc. rough idea from within the industry, not second hand info. exact details not needed either.

 

[Indianhawk]

As expected what was supposed to be a private conversation ended being recorded public humiliation at airshow attended by delegations from the world over, now that the shitshow has begun every Tom, Dick and Harry with their half-to-zero-to-nonexistent technical knowledge and zero understanding of ground realities will be coming up with their own prophecies and an ignorant crowd with zero understanding of professional conduct and with their love for making sweeping idiotic statements will cheer them on gleefully.

If this was to be private they should have got a room. It was spoken in public because it was meant to be public.

 

[Indianhawk]

Lca and it's varients were always secondary for IAF. But govt refusal to shell out 25 billion for mrfa in one go forced them to be serious with lca program finally. That's why all these concerns and complaints.

Air force and navy together need 1000 jets. If imported they will all cost 150 billion usd !!

Just 36+26 rafales are costing us 16 billion usd.

Meanwhile we will have 83+97= 180 mk1a under 14 Billion usd.

200 mk2 will cost under 20 billion too.

IAF desperately wants a private line to compete with hal. They wanted it with mrfa tot but that was deemed to costly by babus. Now IAF wants to private sector to lead lca mk2 and Amca production.

The battle is out in open let's see where it takes us.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

Lca and it's varients were always secondary for IAF. But govt refusal to shell out 25 billion for mrfa in one go forced them to be serious with lca program finally. That's why all these concerns and complaints.

Air force and navy together need 1000 jets. If imported they will all cost 150 billion usd !!

Just 36+26 rafales are costing us 16 billion usd.

Meanwhile we will have 83+97= 180 mk1a under 14 Billion usd.

200 mk2 will cost under 20 billion too.

IAF desperately wants a private line to compete with hal. They wanted it with mrfa tot but that was deemed to costly by babus. Now IAF wants to private sector to lead lca mk2 and Amca production.

The battle is out in open let's see where it takes us.

I am extremely doubtful behind the intent of Private Sector ToT Kickstarter argument of IAF. The argument is fine it it's about impartation of Industry Standards and such. But iam doubtful since it's coming from IAF. What exactly private sector gonna learn about? Is it airframe composites? But then how exactly making a 4.5th gen composites from Dassualt gonna be applied to Fifth gen RAS? Is is about Internal Avionics? Because no private company makes them except for Gormint ones.

Iam yet to find a answer to what exactly MRFA gonna impart to private sector and how is that relevant to next generation composites or alloys?

 

[Indianhawk]

I am extremely doubtful behind the intent of Private Sector ToT Kickstarter argument of IAF. The argument is fine it it's about impartation of Industry Standards and such. But iam doubtful since it's coming from IAF. What exactly private sector gonna learn about? Is it airframe composites? But then how exactly making a 4.5th gen composites from Dassualt gonna be applied to Fifth gen RAS? Is is about Internal Avionics? Because no private company makes them except for Gormint ones.

Iam yet to find a answer to what exactly MRFA gonna impart to private sector and how is that relevant to next generation composites or alloys?

It will learn similar to what hal learned from su30mki manufacturing. Idea is that private sector with it's greed will actually learn much more than what PSU have ever done through various tot programs.

Regarding composites lca has more composite surface compared to rafale. That private sector is already learning by making components parts for lca.

Mrfa was supposed to bring whole ecosystem of which will move from assembly to manufacturing from local sources over time.

Argument against this is that mk2 and Amca will do that much better.

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

It will learn similar to what hal learned from su30mki manufacturing. Idea is that private sector with it's greed will actually learn much more than what PSU have ever done through various tot programs.

Regarding composites lca has more composite surface compared to rafale. That private sector is already learning by making components parts for lca.

Mrfa was supposed to bring whole ecosystem of which will move from assembly to manufacturing from local sources over time.

Argument against this is that mk2 and Amca will do that much better.

I asked what EXACTLY private sector gonna learn with MRFA? How is that different from a private sector being given incharge of AMCA Or LCA Mk2. Like private sector already does majority of the work like Only front fuselage comes from HAL with remaining from Private Vendors in case of Tejas. Canopy, Display, Radar comes from Private Companies.

Are you saying somehow a 4.5th gen technologies impart gonna be translated to 5th gen magically?

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

It will learn similar to what hal learned from su30mki manufacturing. Idea is that private sector with it's greed will actually learn much more than what PSU have ever done through various tot programs.

Regarding composites lca has more composite surface compared to rafale. That private sector is already learning by making components parts for lca.

Mrfa was supposed to bring whole ecosystem of which will move from assembly to manufacturing from local sources over time.

Argument against this is that mk2 and Amca will do that much better.

HAL learned jackshit from Su-30 interms of avionics or composites. It basically took it from piece of crap russians supplied to more acceptable thing indigenizing components on their own. Russians couldn't even do proper composites then. Those avionics were junk that HAL imported some and made some on their own. LCA Tejas flew before Su-30MKI became a thing.

 

[Indianhawk]

HAL learned jackshit from Su-30 interms of avionics or composites. It basically took it from piece of crap russians supplied to more acceptable thing indigenizing components on their own. Russians couldn't even do proper composites then. Those avionics were junk that HAL imported some and made some on their own. LCA Tejas flew before Su-30MKI became a thing.

You should read about indeginous content in al31 at the moment . Hal learned this from su30mki. It is hoped private sector would be more efficient and faster and getting there with m88 of rafale or f414 tot which is coming for mk2 and Amca.

You are right about composites but I posted that already myself.

Tejas and mki programs fed into one - another.

 

[Indianhawk]

I asked what EXACTLY private sector gonna learn with MRFA? How is that different from a private sector being given incharge of AMCA Or LCA Mk2. Like private sector already does majority of the work like Only front fuselage comes from HAL with remaining from Private Vendors in case of Tejas. Canopy, Display, Radar comes from Private Companies.

Are you saying somehow a 4.5th gen technologies impart gonna be translated to 5th gen magically?

This is exactly what the debate is about.
Proponents of mrfa argue that rafale manufacturing techniques are way ahead of what hal is doing now.

Proponents of lca mk2 argue there is nothing to learn from rafale we are almost there and could do better if money is invested domestically.

This is what I was relaying to the forum and not arguing for mrfa.

IAF obviously want rafale in large numbers and to maintain such fleet it wants spares , engine maintenance and in future mid life upgrades here in India itself. That much tot is atleast required otherwise rafale becomes a white elephant.

 

[redpanda]

It will learn similar to what hal learned from su30mki manufacturing. Idea is that private sector with it's greed will actually learn much more than what PSU have ever done through various tot programs.

Regarding composites lca has more composite surface compared to rafale. That private sector is already learning by making components parts for lca.

Mrfa was supposed to bring whole ecosystem of which will move from assembly to manufacturing from local sources over time.

Argument against this is that mk2 and Amca will do that much better.

Private sector is very reluctant in itself beyond projects like small & medium weapon system, drones, etc. They rarely seems to be interested in big projects like these. Because they don't see huge margin to earn money with it. And they fear losses. Unless government cover for their losses I don't think they would ever participate. Here I'm not talking about some subsystems, some parts, private firms already do that. I'm talking about inhouse assembly line for whole aircraft. I don't think any private company is ready to offer that.