AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

[Bleh]

IAF may need to confront Pakistani J-31 in 5 years. China will likely have hundreds of 5G aircraft in a few years. How do you suggest IAF fields a credible air defence before AMCA Mk1 is delivered, possibly not until the late 2030's - or even later?

I think Rafales & MWF would be enough for J-31. Yea it'll be like a bit stealthier Jf-17, that's why I said we might get a few Su-57 as stopgap if there's too much dhoti shivering as a 2nd manufacturing source of fighters to expand the induction rate.

Su-75 doesn't exist, or what it'd be offered in MRCA. Plz stop bringing it up.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

I think Rafales & MWF would be enough for J-31. Yea it'll be like a bit stealthier Jf-17, that's why I said we might get a few Su-57 as stopgap if there's too much dhoti shivering as a 2nd manufacturing source of fighters to expand the induction rate.

Su-75 doesn't exist, or what it'd be offered in MRCA. Plz stop bringing it up.

The Pakis won't be able to afford the J-35 in meaningful numbers. They have budget issues with the J-10 already. Don't know what'd be inside the J-35 but design wise it's a stealth fighter. GoI needs to stop dragging it's foot in regards to DRAL and make a quick decision with the additional Rafales (AF+Navy), and order quick. Even the Tejas production is too slow, Mk1As are stuck because of engines, and Mk2 hasn't even seen a prototype being ready. This is shaping up to be a frustratingly slow decade for Indian fighter acquisition.

 

[shade2]

The Pakis won't be able to afford the J-35 in meaningful numbers. They have budget issues with the J-10 already. Don't know what'd be inside the J-35 but design wise it's a stealth fighter. GoI needs to stop dragging it's foot in regards to DRAL and make a quick decision with the additional Rafales (AF+Navy), and order quick. Even the Tejas production is too slow, Mk1As are stuck because of engines, and Mk2 hasn't even seen a prototype being ready. This is shaping up to be a frustratingly slow decade for Indian fighter acquisition.

I doubt it will even be sold to them.
Chinkus are slowly realizing their long-time slave has now found a new master

Pakistan is suddenly resisting China’s security pressure. Is Trump the reason?

Islamabad and Rawalpindi do not want to create an impression of subservience to Chinese power, especially when the administration in the United States is about to change hands.

theprint.in

 

[GodEmperorDoom]

I doubt it will even be sold to them.
Chinkus are slowly realizing their long-time slave has now found a new master

Pakistan is suddenly resisting China’s security pressure. Is Trump the reason?

Islamabad and Rawalpindi do not want to create an impression of subservience to Chinese power, especially when the administration in the United States is about to change hands.

theprint.in

The J-35 is supposed to be Chink's Naval Fighter and do everyone think they will give that to Pakistanis?

Even if the Internals are downgraded, remember that Chinese and all other Stealth Fighter Operators go great lengths like installing Luneberg Lens to hide true RCS. It would be a guarantee that J-35 RCS will be known to CIA in few days these Jahils get it.

 

[Azaad]

The Pakis won't be able to afford the J-35 in meaningful numbers. They have budget issues with the J-10 already. Don't know what'd be inside the J-35 but design wise it's a stealth fighter. GoI needs to stop dragging it's foot in regards to DRAL and make a quick decision with the additional Rafales (AF+Navy), and order quick. Even the Tejas production is too slow, Mk1As are stuck because of engines, and Mk2 hasn't even seen a prototype being ready. This is shaping up to be a frustratingly slow decade for Indian fighter acquisition.

J-35 is the Naval version. FC-31 is the land based version which'd take at least 4-5 years to be realised. Besides I don't think as long as Trump is around , they'd risk getting such platforms from the Chinese.

J-10 was offered to Paxtan by the Chinese on credit at "reasonable " interest rates. Besides it's a export version , the same as the FC-31 as & even it'd be exported to PAF.

Hopefully the deal for the Rafale M will be signed before the end of this financial year or at least that's the plan going by reports. More Rafales for IAF would only come thru the MRFA tender.

The boat for getting 36 nos more has long since sailed . Would've been possible up until early 2022 . Today Dassault has a full order book & given the disruptions in supply chains it's expected that their assembly lines will be working to clear the back log till the end of this decade.

A slim chance of Dassault establishing am assembly line here exists if we give them an order for at least 100 nos FA . From my chats with French members on another forum , I believe even if the immediate order is for 75+ nos the French government will persuade Dassault to consider it on the condition that eventually GoI will enhance their procurement.

But frankly do you see the Modi government going in for 54 nos ( IAF) + 26 nos (IN) order ? I don't. For all his bravado 56" has been spooked by Pappu after the last time the latter went public with allegations of underhand dealings between the GoI & Dassault.

After the recent general elections where the Dalits successfully bought the opposition's proposition of Modi seeking 400 seats to do away with reservations do you think he'd go in for a G2G deal with the French ?

56" should've exercised the option for another 36 additional Rafales immediately after the Galwan clashes or somewhere in 2020 itself. Even if Pappu raised objections the GoI could've easily tackled him by convincing the public he's acting against the national interest.

In hindsight we can say that was our best chance as even Dassault's order books were running empty then . Modi blew up our chances then & there.

 

[Bleh]

The Pakis won't be able to afford the J-35 in meaningful numbers.

AMCA prototype is too come in 2027, Induction is expected st 2032. That's a long time for Pakistan to get few FC-31s as "indigenously developed jet". J-10 is high end got never exported before, this one is more likely to be made lower for export market.
That, J-20 mass production, coupled with define random news tidbits is what made me think Su-57 limited induction possible.

The MRCA clusterfuck is confusing at it is. SH-18 would have had the highest chance due to engine commonality with AMCA, but now we already have Rafale-M to cover till 2050+ (what of TEDBF then?)
We can't be getting Eurofighter & Gripen. Mig-35 has low chances, although it will build on our Mig-29 use. Su-35 & F-15 are even more unlikely. It's were getting a heavy then Su-57, with all its faults, still comes ahead of them.

What are the options then.. old Mirages?

We do need multiple sources to build numbers.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

AMCA prototype is too come in 2027, Induction is expected st 2032. That's a long time for Pakistan to get few FC-31s as "indigenously developed jet". J-10 is high end got never exported before, this one is more likely to be made lower for export market.
That, J-20 mass production, coupled with define random news tidbits is what made me think Su-57 limited induction possible.

The MRCA clusterfuck is confusing at it is. SH-18 would have had the highest chance due to engine commonality with AMCA, but now we already have Rafale-M to cover till 2050+ (what of TEDBF then?)
We can't be getting Eurofighter & Gripen. Mig-35 has low chances, although it will build on our Mig-29 use. Su-35 & F-15 are even more unlikely. It's were getting a heavy then Su-57, with all its faults, still comes ahead of them.

What are the options then.. old Mirages?

We do need multiple sources to build numbers.

Build new MKIs with the proposed upgrade package. 2-3 more squadrons. Or Order two squadrons of Su-57s with option for license manufacturing. Rafale is the only aircraft that'd win MRFA, requires diplomacy to start local production to meet induction rates, and the French will reasonably demand almost a 100 total orders. Up to GoI to sell this in the parliament using National security and "boost to local economy" angles. Once the GE404 drama is solved, double the Mk1A production rates to at least 30 aircrafts a year. Open additional facilities as needed, these will later be used for Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF lines. Order atleast 350 MK2s to assure HAL for future orders so they speed up production. We simply HAVE to build/induct more or less 2 squadrons every year for the next 10 years. We need to keep up the high Tejas production rates, AND keep two separate lines open for licensed fighters like Rafale and Su-30/57. While simultaneously figuring out how much private sector involvement we want for AMCA and set in stone the workload share. Because by the time Mk2 goes into production, the AMCA production plans better be solid and ready for an empty line. Now for all of these simple goodies I mentioned, there's this not so simple mammoth issue of budget. $5.5 billion a year won't cut it. TEDBF I have honestly no clue, I doubt it's even in active development. IAF is not interested in it, and Navy doesn't get enough budget to think about it deeply right now. If local production of Rafale-Ms are set up, they'll be content with those. More Migs are a bad idea because of their subpar availability rates, and Klimov more or less gave up further developing the RD series engines after the MK. Old Mirages we get from here and there will only be cannibalized for parts.​

 

[Bleh]

Build new MKIs with the proposed upgrade package. 2-3 more squadrons. Or Order two squadrons of Su-57s with option for license manufacturing. Rafale is the only aircraft that'd win MRFA, requires diplomacy to start local production to meet induction rates, and the French will reasonably demand almost a 100 total orders. Up to GoI to sell this in the parliament using National security and "boost to local economy" angles. Once the GE404 drama is solved, double the Mk1A production rates to at least 30 aircrafts a year. Open additional facilities as needed, these will later be used for Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF lines. Order atleast 350 MK2s to assure HAL for future orders so they speed up production. We simply HAVE to build/induct more or less 2 squadrons every year for the next 10 years. We need to keep up the high Tejas production rates, AND keep two separate lines open for licensed fighters like Rafale and Su-30/57. While simultaneously figuring out how much private sector involvement we want for AMCA and set in stone the workload share. Because by the time Mk2 goes into production, the AMCA production plans better be solid and ready for an empty line. Now for all of these simple goodies I mentioned, there's this not so simple mammoth issue of budget. $5.5 billion a year won't cut it. TEDBF I have honestly no clue, I doubt it's even in active development. IAF is not interested in it, and Navy doesn't get enough budget to think about it deeply right now. If local production of Rafale-Ms are set up, they'll be content with those. More Migs are a bad idea because of their subpar availability rates, and Klimov more or less gave up further developing the RD series engines after the MK. Old Mirages we get from here and there will only be cannibalized for parts.​

Building new MKIs as Super Sukhois won't happen... We aren't even upgrading them all from the ones we have!

And why we all for ToT on Su-57?. It's marginally better than a Su-35, like a semi-stealth version, plus it'll take time. AMCA will arrive by then & better. Anything beyond a simple G2G order to fill numbers for the time being is unlikely.

Same with rafale local production. It'll start earliest by 2028. Integrating Indio-Israeli radar itself pierced too costly for rafale-Ms. We can't afford large numbers. Hasn't happened, likely won't.

I once thought Mig-35 has a chance. If Mig-29s are getting Astra & Uttam, they can too. They're reportly almost ⅓rd the RCS & has 3d TVC option of RD-133 engines. Plus we have 43 naval Mig-29s being prematurely replaced. Those can be upgraded to Mig-35 standard as well.

 

[Mangal]

I personally feel that 2 years from now F-15 deal would be signed. Boeing allready has a limited manufacturing facility in India. It would easily shift or expand it for the deal.
Although IAF prefers Rafael the supply shortage and replenishment of our declining squadron strength in short time frame are two very important factors that will be the deciding factors.
With republicans in US we can get a lot of other political benefits by this deal.
US MIC has the capability to fulfill the order in limited time frame.
So if all goes well..by three years we would be having atleast 30-40 new aircrafts .
After warming US pockets we can easily get the engines for AMCA and may be technical assistance as well.

 

[shade2]

I personally feel that 2 years from now F-15 deal would be signed. Boeing allready has a limited manufacturing facility in India. It would easily shift or expand it for the deal.
Although IAF prefers Rafael the supply shortage and replenishment of our declining squadron strength in short time frame are two very important factors that will be the deciding factors.
With republicans in US we can get a lot of other political benefits by this deal.
US MIC has the capability to fulfill the order in limited time frame.
So if all goes well..by three years we would be having atleast 30-40 new aircrafts .
After warming US pockets we can easily get the engines for AMCA and may be technical assistance as well.

We already have heavy fighters in form of Su-30mki so no.
Supposedly your heavy fighters are more expensive to maintain, perhaps they use a lot of fuel?

 

[Suryavanshi]

Build new MKIs with the proposed upgrade package. 2-3 more squadrons. Or Order two squadrons of Su-57s with option for license manufacturing. Rafale is the only aircraft that'd win MRFA, requires diplomacy to start local production to meet induction rates, and the French will reasonably demand almost a 100 total orders. Up to GoI to sell this in the parliament using National security and "boost to local economy" angles. Once the GE404 drama is solved, double the Mk1A production rates to at least 30 aircrafts a year. Open additional facilities as needed, these will later be used for Mk2/AMCA/TEDBF lines. Order atleast 350 MK2s to assure HAL for future orders so they speed up production. We simply HAVE to build/induct more or less 2 squadrons every year for the next 10 years. We need to keep up the high Tejas production rates, AND keep two separate lines open for licensed fighters like Rafale and Su-30/57. While simultaneously figuring out how much private sector involvement we want for AMCA and set in stone the workload share. Because by the time Mk2 goes into production, the AMCA production plans better be solid and ready for an empty line. Now for all of these simple goodies I mentioned, there's this not so simple mammoth issue of budget. $5.5 billion a year won't cut it. TEDBF I have honestly no clue, I doubt it's even in active development. IAF is not interested in it, and Navy doesn't get enough budget to think about it deeply right now. If local production of Rafale-Ms are set up, they'll be content with those. More Migs are a bad idea because of their subpar availability rates, and Klimov more or less gave up further developing the RD series engines after the MK. Old Mirages we get from here and there will only be cannibalized for parts.​

This makes me think.
Mudi gormint did have a plan regarding MRFA.
ORCA and TEDBF were no coincidence, they were in the making for quite some while.
Basically it was in this order.
Setup plant for Rafale using Reliance Aerosoace than use the same plant for ORCA and TEDBF.
This plan must have relied upon the constant and stable supply GE engine.


It seems Covid and Raul Gandhi decimated this plan, Raul was not at fault and wasn't a big factor to begin with but association of Rafle with scam and Reliance really put the gormint in had light.

The straw that broke the Camels back was COVID tho.

2022 Rafale production begins -> 2026-27 is when ORCA gets introduced -> 2032 ORCA production begins in rafale plant.

 

[shauryaman65]

I personally feel that 2 years from now F-15 deal would be signed. Boeing allready has a limited manufacturing facility in India. It would easily shift or expand it for the deal.
Although IAF prefers Rafael the supply shortage and replenishment of our declining squadron strength in short time frame are two very important factors that will be the deciding factors.
With republicans in US we can get a lot of other political benefits by this deal.
US MIC has the capability to fulfill the order in limited time frame.
So if all goes well..by three years we would be having atleast 30-40 new aircrafts .
After warming US pockets we can easily get the engines for AMCA and may be technical assistance as well.

We should stick with Super sukhoi programme, and get production lines of MWF running as fast as possible. But engine supply chains remain a variable here. We really should have made our own engine but oh well.

 

[Bleh]

Root of my suspicions.......

Russian fighter jet Su-57 makes first international sale at Zhuhai Airshow in China

The participation of the Su-57 is a significant moment in the show’s history, but also a reflection of how geopolitical dynamics are at the moment

www.firstpost.com

 

[Blademaster]

J-35 is the Naval version. FC-31 is the land based version which'd take at least 4-5 years to be realised. Besides I don't think as long as Trump is around , they'd risk getting such platforms from the Chinese.

J-10 was offered to Paxtan by the Chinese on credit at "reasonable " interest rates. Besides it's a export version , the same as the FC-31 as & even it'd be exported to PAF.

Hopefully the deal for the Rafale M will be signed before the end of this financial year or at least that's the plan going by reports. More Rafales for IAF would only come thru the MRFA tender.

The boat for getting 36 nos more has long since sailed . Would've been possible up until early 2022 . Today Dassault has a full order book & given the disruptions in supply chains it's expected that their assembly lines will be working to clear the back log till the end of this decade.

A slim chance of Dassault establishing am assembly line here exists if we give them an order for at least 100 nos FA . From my chats with French members on another forum , I believe even if the immediate order is for 75+ nos the French government will persuade Dassault to consider it on the condition that eventually GoI will enhance their procurement.

But frankly do you see the Modi government going in for 54 nos ( IAF) + 26 nos (IN) order ? I don't. For all his bravado 56" has been spooked by Pappu after the last time the latter went public with allegations of underhand dealings between the GoI & Dassault.

After the recent general elections where the Dalits successfully bought the opposition's proposition of Modi seeking 400 seats to do away with reservations do you think he'd go in for a G2G deal with the French ?

56" should've exercised the option for another 36 additional Rafales immediately after the Galwan clashes or somewhere in 2020 itself. Even if Pappu raised objections the GoI could've easily tackled him by convincing the public he's acting against the national interest.

In hindsight we can say that was our best chance as even Dassault's order books were running empty then . Modi blew up our chances then & there.

At that time, covid was running rampant and India had to parcel its monies very carefully because there was no indication of how much spending GoI would need to keep the economy going in face of covid nationwide shutdown.

 

[Vishnugupt]

Tejas is the best to fulfill India's requirement

The best possible foreign aircraft India can have quickly is Su-30mki. It will take only 3-4 years including Indian upgrade.


Next could be Su-35 giving commonality with Su-30mki, it will take approximately 5 years.

These two aircraft are sufficient to fulfill medium category requirements ( though I do not believe in these UN Generals classification)

Going for 4+ generation aircraft except above, is pure waste of money and resources as Tejas MK2 will be ready by time it will deliver. Even TEDBF will be around.

Better go for SU-57 if India really want to acquire foreign aircraft and junk MRFA forever.

Beyond 2030 India will be needed a 5th generation aircraft to counter Chinese 5th generations aircraft. Rafale and eurofighter is not going to help after 2030.

But blind UN Generals will do nothing