Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Blademaster]

• These are not older airframes but newly-MLUed Mig-29 UPGs.
• Mig-29 is not known as widow maker but Mig-21 (all retired except 1 sqn I think).
• Generals are now responsible for maintenance ? I thought "procurement" especially from phoren is the strong point for generals ?

C'mon, free speech has led you folks mind get poisoned by Armed-Forces hating leftist elements on this forum. You guys have made Armed Forces leadership a convinient punching bag for everything wrong with your lives.

When GoI can't plan properly to procure jets in the last 20 years, stonewalling every deal with myriad of problems, then sheepishly procuring 36 Rafales through "emergency purchases" how is IAF supposed to fix this problem through some magic wand ?

Sorry that's deflecting the blame. IAF very well knew that India's coffers could not simply afford the expensive Rafales and should have known or taken the hint to heart and plan for cheaper alternatives. But no, it doubled down on Rafales or nothing, daring GoI in a game of chicken. Well, it turned out that it didn't work and India as a whole loses.

Look at PAF. PAF knew that it could not afford pricey planes so it made the best out of its situation and look where it is now. A viable 4th gen fighter force able to keep IAF on its toes on its own despite overwhelming numerical disadvantage.

IAF should have read the writing on the wall and double down on Tejas and Kaveri engine program and make provisions for temporary fixes while India gets Tejas and Kaveri program to the finish line and India would have its own domestic fighter industry fully capable of serving its needs. But no, IAF was too myopic and arrogant to allow that to happen. Not only that, but I dare say corrupted by greed and hubris.

No, IAF brass takes the blame fully and squarely on this one.

 

[mist_consecutive]

That's why we don't have any accountability.
Generals are not responsible for procurement it's government job .
Generals are not responsible for maintenance, it's mechanic job
Generals are not responsible for day to day operation, it's mid level officer jobs
What are they then for ?

There has to be accountability..you can't keep on losing pilots and frames and be cool about it
.

Again, brushing everything under General's carpet because it has become fashionable to blame them, isn't it ?

Be objective and talk each points out instead of ranting and blaming entire IAF.

• How is IAF responsible if GoI doesn't agree for fighter jet procurement owning to its own political backlashes & other challenges ?
• IAF ordered Tejas Mk1A now, and due to supply chain issues it is not getting delivered. How is that IAF's fault ?
• Do you have any proof the crash is due to shoddy maintenance ? Has any report pointed out substandard maintenance standard by IAF ? How come any General is responsible here ?

Yes, Generals are responsible for day-to-day operations. Yes, there has to be accoutability. And there is accountability. The reports are just not been presented to you and media.

But I can ask for the opposite as well. 3 NDA govts has completely failed in procurement of fighter jets, whether domestic or foreign. Who takes accountability for that ?

 

[Lcafanboy]

View: https://x.com/livefist/status/1853464899403301349

IAF Pilot took MIG 29 for a Spin, quite literally....

 

[mist_consecutive]

Sorry that's deflecting the blame. IAF very well knew that India's coffers could not simply afford the expensive Rafales and should have known or taken the hint to heart and plan for cheaper alternatives. But no, it doubled down on Rafales or nothing, daring GoI in a game of chicken. Well, it turned out that it didn't work and India as a whole loses.

The most, absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theory in Indian defence has to be the bold one.

IAF doesn't have funds ? World's 5th largest economy doesn't have funds to buy fighter jets ? Oh right, they are so expensive, aren't they ?

That is why -

1. Indonesia, world's 16th by GDP has more Rafale than us.
2. UAE, being world's 28th by GDP has more than double Rafale than us.
3. Egypt, being world/s 31st in GDP has more Rafale than us.

Heck, even Kanglus who borrow eggs and electrcity from us are going to buy Rafale.

France seeks Rafale deal with Bangladesh

France aims to finalise Rafale deal with Bangladesh as discussions gain momentum under Caretaker PM Mohammad Yunus. New Delhi: France is hoping that the

sundayguardianlive.com

Look at PAF. PAF knew that it could not afford pricey planes so it made the best out of its situation and look where it is now. A viable 4th gen fighter force able to keep IAF on its toes on its own despite overwhelming numerical disadvantage.

?? PAF is also buying J-10s, Akincis and probably gonna get J-35s as well in future. They aren't concerned about money or shit like that.

IAF should have read the writing on the wall and double down on Tejas and Kaveri engine program and make provisions for temporary fixes while India gets Tejas and Kaveri program to the finish line and India would have its own domestic fighter industry fully capable of serving its needs. But no, IAF was too myopic and arrogant to allow that to happen. Not only that, but I dare say corrupted by greed and hubris.

Yeah, they finally did that, didn't they ? Doubled-down on Tejas.

Kaveri is a challenge, a technical failure and we should not be ashamed of it. Even China struggled for multiple years. Yes, it should be our top (national) priority, and GoI must allocate funds for it. Ask MoD to fund GTRE, IAF is not resonsible for "development" of jet engines.

No, IAF brass takes the blame fully and squarely on this one.

That is your personal opinion, and you are allowed to have one.

 

[Suryavanshi]

Never understood why we stopped at just 36 rafales.
Clearly if anything 72+ should have been ideal numbers would have been the thematic successor of Mirages.

I guess the Rafale corruption scandal was the reason gov backed off from the project.

 

[Suryavanshi]

The most, absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theory in Indian defence has to be the bold one.

IAF doesn't have funds ? World's 5th largest economy doesn't have funds to buy fighter jets ? Oh right, they are so expensive, aren't they ?

That is why -

1. Indonesia, world's 16th by GDP has more Rafale than us.
2. UAE, being world's 28th by GDP has more than double Rafale than us.
3. Egypt, being world/s 31st in GDP has more Rafale than us.

Heck, even Kanglus who borrow eggs and electrcity from us are going to buy Rafale.

France seeks Rafale deal with Bangladesh

France aims to finalise Rafale deal with Bangladesh as discussions gain momentum under Caretaker PM Mohammad Yunus. New Delhi: France is hoping that the

sundayguardianlive.com

?? PAF is also buying J-10s, Akincis and probably gonna get J-35s as well in future. They aren't concerned about money or shit like that.



Yeah, they finally did that, didn't they ? Doubled-down on Tejas.

Kaveri is a challenge, a technical failure and we should not be ashamed of it. Even China struggled for multiple years. Yes, it should be our top (national) priority, and GoI must allocate funds for it. Ask MoD to fund GTRE, IAF is not resonsible for "development" of jet engines.



That is your personal opinion, and you are allowed to have one.

This being said do we have government quote or any official statement that clearly mentions cost of rafales per unit?

 

[Brood Father]

Again, brushing everything under General's carpet because it has become fashionable to blame them, isn't it ?

Be objective and talk each points out instead of ranting and blaming entire IAF.

• How is IAF responsible if GoI doesn't agree for fighter jet procurement owning to its own political backlashes & other challenges ?
• IAF ordered Tejas Mk1A now, and due to supply chain issues it is not getting delivered. How is that IAF's fault ?
• Do you have any proof the crash is due to shoddy maintenance ? Has any report pointed out substandard maintenance standard by IAF ? How come any General is responsible here ?

Yes, Generals are responsible for day-to-day operations. Yes, there has to be accoutability. And there is accountability. The reports are just not been presented to you and media.

But I can ask for the opposite as well. 3 NDA govts has completely failed in procurement of fighter jets, whether domestic or foreign. Who takes accountability for that ?

Yes government is responsible for not procuring and nobody is not blaming them for this fiasco in which our Air force is .. Government and babus are responsible for this mess ..true and I don't blame Air force for that .
But crashing planes every now and then is something for which general should be held accountable for ..

 

[Blademaster]

The most, absolutely ridiculous conspiracy theory in Indian defence has to be the bold one.

IAF doesn't have funds ? World's 5th largest economy doesn't have funds to buy fighter jets ? Oh right, they are so expensive, aren't they ?

That is why -

1. Indonesia, world's 16th by GDP has more Rafale than us.
2. UAE, being world's 28th by GDP has more than double Rafale than us.
3. Egypt, being world/s 31st in GDP has more Rafale than us.

Heck, even Kanglus who borrow eggs and electrcity from us are going to buy Rafale.

France seeks Rafale deal with Bangladesh

France aims to finalise Rafale deal with Bangladesh as discussions gain momentum under Caretaker PM Mohammad Yunus. New Delhi: France is hoping that the

sundayguardianlive.com

?? PAF is also buying J-10s, Akincis and probably gonna get J-35s as well in future. They aren't concerned about money or shit like that.



Yeah, they finally did that, didn't they ? Doubled-down on Tejas.

Kaveri is a challenge, a technical failure and we should not be ashamed of it. Even China struggled for multiple years. Yes, it should be our top (national) priority, and GoI must allocate funds for it. Ask MoD to fund GTRE, IAF is not resonsible for "development" of jet engines.



That is your personal opinion, and you are allowed to have one.

Now you are being silly.

Indonesia, UAE, and Egypt do not have a 1.4 billion population to feed, house, and nurse. India does. They do not have a 1.4 million man force which carries its own expenses. India do. They do not have two enemies and multiple fronts to fight against. India do.

It is a question of managing your limited resources and stretching it out far as you can. The more Rafales you buy, the less resources that other branches get such as submarine arm, surface ships, patrol planes, artillery, tanks, atgms, missiles, ammunition, drones, etc. The list goes on.

IAF was foolish to think that GoI would sacrifice other programs just to satisfy IAF's childish buffoonery demands for Rafales when IAF could have taken the Tejas program to completion and fulfil IAF's pressing needs without draining Indian coffers and at the same time, build a sustainable war industry that would serve India's needs for decades.

Yes, IAF is myopic and shortsighted and is full of buffoons.

 

[Spitfire IX]

Now you are being silly.

Indonesia, UAE, and Egypt do not have a 1.4 billion population to feed, house, and nurse. India does. They do not have a 1.4 million man force which carries its own expenses. India do. They do not have two enemies and multiple fronts to fight against. India do.

It is a question of managing your limited resources and stretching it out far as you can. The more Rafales you buy, the less resources that other branches get such as submarine arm, surface ships, patrol planes, artillery, tanks, atgms, missiles, ammunition, drones, etc. The list goes on.

IAF was foolish to think that GoI would sacrifice other programs just to satisfy IAF's childish buffoonery demands for Rafales when IAF could have taken the Tejas program to completion and fulfil IAF's pressing needs without draining Indian coffers and at the same time, build a sustainable war industry that would serve India's needs for decades.

Yes, IAF is myopic and shortsighted and is full of buffoons.

I am not sure about what you say. Had Rafale (or some other medium weight fighter) not been ordered after the MRCA cancellation, IAF would be in a very weak position right now. Even if two or three squadrons of MkA were delivered by now, IAF would still be in a weak position. Rafale is a far more sophisticated and far more able fighter than Mk1A.

 

[daya]

• Do you have any proof the crash is due to shoddy maintenance ? Has any report pointed out substandard maintenance standard by IAF ? How come any General is responsible here ?

Please get in touch with technical staff engaged in maintenance.

 

[daya]

Again, brushing everything under General's carpet because it has become fashionable to blame them, isn't it ?

Generals are only for getting "Shabashi"?? That can be done by a layman too...

 

[Blademaster]

I am not sure about what you say. Had Rafale (or some other medium weight fighter) not been ordered after the MRCA cancellation, IAF would be in a very weak position right now. Even if two or three squadrons of MkA were delivered by now, IAF would still be in a weak position. Rafale is a far more sophisticated and far more able fighter than Mk1A.

No but it would have certainly force IAF not to waste the decade of 2010s pining for Rafales and force them to get down to brasstacks and work on bringing Tejas and Kaveri engine programs to fruition, throwing all of its might and resources into backing these projects as opposed to giving the unwanted stepson treatment which only served to delay and drag out the completion of these programs.

Besides 36 Rafales is not gonna do shit against PLAAF and its hundreds of S-27 clones, J-20 planes. You need at least 200 of them to actually mean something against the size of PLAAF and I do not see any sign of GoI willing to pony that kind of money to get 200 of these birds. But GoI was always willing to pony up money for hundreds of indigenous fighters as a way of supporting and building a domestic base for aviation industry and employing thousands of people. A job creator that brings in vote banks. IAF should have seen that.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Please get in touch with technical staff engaged in maintenance.

I got in touch with them, they told the issue is RD-33 has a faulty design to begin with, is prone to failure due to its faulty fuel injectors.

Generals are only for getting "Shabashi"?? That can be done by a layman too...

Nope, generals are only for being the punching bag of everything wrong in India.

 

[mist_consecutive]

No but it would have certainly force IAF not to waste the decade of 2010s pining for Rafales and force them to get down to brasstacks and work on bringing Tejas and Kaveri engine programs to fruition, throwing all of its might and resources into backing these projects as opposed to giving the unwanted stepson treatment which only served to delay and drag out the completion of these programs.

Option A : Order MRCA, get jets delivered, build & maintain credible air force.
Option B : Order Tejas, face endless delays, no guarantee of timelines.
Option C : Balance between A & B, order A in small numbers for B to mature and buffer the anticipated delays.

The wisest option is indeed option C. But that won't make fanboys happy isn't it because they can't foresee the clear planning and supply chain hurdles. They think put money in machine => Tejas comes out of other side.

Now IAF pretty much ditched both option A & C and went full-power with option B. Half of 2020s decade is gone. Where are my Tejas now ?

Besides 36 Rafales is not gonna do shit against PLAAF and its hundreds of S-27 clones, J-20 planes. You need at least 200 of them to actually mean something against the size of PLAAF and I do not see any sign of GoI willing to pony that kind of money to get 200 of these birds.

Of course 36 Rafales are not gonna do shit. We needed at least 72 (4-5 Sqns minimum) as stop-gap so that we can take time to make Tejas Mk1 / Mk2.

But GoI to butter the Make-In-India bread killed our short-term air power capability and ordered only 36.

Also to note, PLAAF was not in our focus & doctrine before 2020.

But GoI was always willing to pony up money for hundreds of indigenous fighters as a way of supporting and building a domestic base for aviation industry and employing thousands of people. A job creator that brings in vote banks. IAF should have seen that.

Of course, instead of building credible Armed Forces strength, give it to useless freeloader workers and socialist union PSUs with negative productivity. A job creator khatakhat scheme indeed !

This is why we are not a powerful country, because we are not serious about defence.

 

[Ayan Barat]

As if J-20 was not enough of a headache for us, official unveiling of land based version of J-35; J-35A

Spoiler: Live F-35 reaction seeing its rip-off

 

[marliii]

It is a question of managing your limited resources and stretching it out far as you can.

When your so serious about keeping your country safe that you spend only 1.9% of gdp on defence which was this low during nehru era you bet resources are gonna be scarce. Multiple parliamentery committee have spoken about rising defence expenditure to atleast 3% but Modi san is more worried about dehatis getting subsidiary than Defence and Military officials being the low hanging fruit they get the blame.

 

[mist_consecutive]

Yes, IAF is myopic and shortsighted and is full of buffoons.

The only myopic and shortsigted buffons are MoD and bhujia-guzzling bureaucrats who have sacrificed our airpower for their votebank politics of Make-in-India.

War will be upon us in later part of the decade and we will keep screw-drivering Tejas in HAL workshops while Chinese planes bomb your asses.

Now you are being silly.

Indonesia, UAE, and Egypt do not have a 1.4 billion population to feed, house, and nurse. India does. They do not have a 1.4 million man force which carries its own expenses. India do. They do not have two enemies and multiple fronts to fight against. India do.

Laughable argument. You are clutching on straws now.

Lets ignore GDP because you can bring bhooka nanga people argument (typical socialist playbook), lets compare defence budget -

Defence Budget of -

• Egpyt - 5.2 bn $
• Indonesia - 10.6 bn $
• UAE - 24 bn $
• India - 75 bn $

It is a question of managing your limited resources and stretching it out far as you can. The more Rafales you buy, the less resources that other branches get such as submarine arm, surface ships, patrol planes, artillery, tanks, atgms, missiles, ammunition, drones, etc. The list goes on.

We don't have limited resources in any sense. We have surplus. Each year a sizeable chunk of defence budget allocated is wasted because GoI won't approve defence deals and regular maintenance / operations consumes only a small amount.

Army, IAF Struggle to Exhaust Capital Budget, Defence Minister Asks to Expedite Spending - News18

Union Budget 2022: The low spending of the defence budget comes as an aberration because the services are learnt to have projected the requirement for capital budgets way higher than they were allocated.

www.news18.com

IAF was foolish to think that GoI would sacrifice other programs just to satisfy IAF's childish buffoonery demands for Rafales when IAF could have taken the Tejas program to completion and fulfil IAF's pressing needs without draining Indian coffers and at the same time, build a sustainable war industry that would serve India's needs for decades.

Air Force by default is the most technically sophisticated and capital-intensive branch out of three in any country. You cannot argue that we sacrifice combat jets to build submarine, surface ships etc. etc. Both has to go hand-in-hand.

Tell me, why can't we increase defence spending as % of GDP ? Ohh, right, bhooka nanga Kanglus and Rohingyas won't get to make their 10th baby right ?

 

[Ayan Barat]

Multiple parliamentery committee have spoken about rising defence expenditure to atleast 3%

Naaah man, this statement doesn't do justice to the severity of the matter. Let me use a more just one

EVEN MOHUA MOITRA HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THIS...MOHUA MOITRA
View: https://x.com/MahuaMoitra/status/1821094241415946631

 

[mist_consecutive]

Naaah man, this statement doesn't do justice to the severity of the matter. Let me use a more just one

EVEN MOHUA MOITRA HAVE SPOKEN ABOUT THIS...MOHUA MOITRA
View: https://x.com/MahuaMoitra/status/1821094241415946631

The truth is, have have money to buy Rafales as stop-gap, order Tejas and develop Kaveri all at once.

We are not a resource crunched country, its a mentality problem. When you treat Armed Forces as a vada pao stall you get vada pao defence.

 

[Ayan Barat]

We are not a resource crunched country

> barges in out of nowhere
> orders just 6 AH-64s for a Billion USD
> refuses to elaborate
> leaves

Yup; we're definitely not a resource crunched country