Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[SlayingHell]

There is some dalal on Twitter doing "Gotcha..." seems some ex-serviceman, peddling weird and absurd logic that we should abandon our domestic program and depend on imports that will deliver later. Even after repeated e-belt treatment by desi defense enthusiasts, he is hanging on that rope.

Also, people should be given awareness that not every veteran is a patriot. Most of them are snakes and dalals.

 

[truthsoldier]

The never ending joke of India's fighter procurement. First issue 126 fighter RFP then settle for 36 after paying for India specific modifications and then again come back after few yrs with another fighter procurement running into yrs and billions of dollars.

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/centre-hints-at-issuing-an-open-tender-for-iafs-mega-114-fighter-jets-deal20241029144935/

 

[Nutcracker]

The never ending joke of India's fighter procurement. First issue 126 fighter RFP then settle for 36 after paying for India specific modifications and then again come back after few yrs with another fighter procurement running into yrs and billions of dollars.

https://aninews.in/news/national/general-news/centre-hints-at-issuing-an-open-tender-for-iafs-mega-114-fighter-jets-deal20241029144935/

We would've still recieved only 50 Rafales by now if order was 118. Dassault is unable to make even 10 per year. Even assembly line wouldn't have worked. It was a good escape.

 

[truthsoldier]

We would've still recieved only 50 Rafales by now if order was 118. Dassault is unable to make even 10 per year. Even assembly line wouldn't have worked. It was a good escape.

We were amongst first few nations for export in 2015 and I think dassault delivered all 36 rafales in 36 months

 

[Ayan Barat]

We would've still recieved only 50 Rafales by now if order was 118. Dassault is unable to make even 10 per year. Even assembly line wouldn't have worked. It was a good escape.

Definitely the production rate is low but isn't that a cause-n-effect loop type thing

An order for 150 Rafale is a huge deal. It would have been the biggest non French order at that time or to put in perspective, even today it's close to the combined total of all the orders other than French and Emirati. For this much of Euros involved we could've easily made them do

C-295 manufacturing facility launched: Here's how it will transform IAF's tactical airlift operations

India had signed a Rs 21,000 crore deal with Airbus to procure 56 C-295 transport aircraft in September 2021. These will replace the IAF's Avro-748 planes. As per the agreement, Airbus will deliver the first 16 aircraft in ‘fly-away’ condition from its assembly line in Spain, within 7 years.

www.businesstoday.in

or atleast

https://www.hindustantimes.com/business/tataboeing-aerospace-delivers-250th-made-in-india-ah-64-apache-fuselage-101703088006173.html

And voila, your supply issue is pretty much sorted

 

[Spitfire IX]

We would've still recieved only 50 Rafales by now if order was 118. Dassault is unable to make even 10 per year. Even assembly line wouldn't have worked. It was a good escape.

I think you have an inaccurate source. Before Rafale received its first export order (of many), Dassault was bumping along at 11 Rafale produced a year. As far as I know Dassault has been making >10 Rafale a year for 10 years or so. What's your source?

 

[Nutcracker]

I think you have an inaccurate source. Before Rafale received its first export order (of many), Dassault was bumping along at 11 Rafale produced a year. As far as I know Dassault has been making >10 Rafale a year for 10 years or so. What's your source?

They delivered 13 in 2023, and only 6 in first half of 2024 despite planning for 20.
So with French domestic order , india would've been recieving 8-10 only.

 

[truthsoldier]

Mrfa deal is gonna cost humongous. 80 Rafales for UAE costed 18.5 billion dollars 114 would cost 25 billion dollars. The lazy penny pinching behavior of govt towards domestic fighter programs that led to 3-4 yr delay for tejas mk 1a and funding delay of 3 years each in tejas mk 2, amca project will cost our economy atleast 12 billion dollars (at 50% indigenisation) and loss of sovereign decision power

 

[SlayingHell]

Ideal case to end this MRFA circus would have been "leasing a medium weight category fighter jet which is both land and carrier capable in 2015 ...."

my idea
114 for IAF
26 for IN

Total Requirement of 140 jets for 15 years "delivery starting from 2020"

Who are possible contenders ?
Ans: Mig 29 & Fa 18

Per unit price of mig 29 in 2015 is 40 million
Per unit price of fa 18 in 2020 is 65 million

So leasing 140 for 15 yrs would have costed us (approx & without any missiles and bombs)
Less than 5.6 Billion in mig 29 case
Less than 9.1 Billion in Fa 18 case

Lease would complete by 2035 ( exact induction time of AMCA & TEDBF )

There is no such thing as leasing in such large scale. Maybe a squadron atmost is workable but not that huge quantity.

Also Russia is not exactly in position to supply Mig-29. Neither is IAF interested in Amreek Fighters and this is coming from Import Air Force

 

[Nutcracker]

Russia gave N sub on lease for us....leasing N sub is big thing when compared to 140 jets lease...they need paisa and our air force doesn't like Desi projects so some sort of symbiosis is present...there are ~270 mig 29 in service with Russia in 2015 so they can manage to give us 140 in 6 Billion......amreek know that this lease will further strengthen indo russian ties so they will try their best to make Import Air Force love amreek jets

Airforce Migs and Navy Migs are different.
Lots of aiframe/landing gear strengthening and bits n pieces changes for the carrier/saline env operation. So Russia would've needed to build 40 something Mig29k separately.(40 because of their shitty availability).

 

[Nutcracker]

Definitely the production rate is low but isn't that a cause-n-effect loop type thing

An order for 150 Rafale is a huge deal. It would have been the biggest non French order at that time or to put in perspective, even today it's close to the combined total of all the orders other than French and Emirati. For this much of Euros involved we could've easily made them do

C-295 manufacturing facility launched: Here's how it will transform IAF's tactical airlift operations

India had signed a Rs 21,000 crore deal with Airbus to procure 56 C-295 transport aircraft in September 2021. These will replace the IAF's Avro-748 planes. As per the agreement, Airbus will deliver the first 16 aircraft in ‘fly-away’ condition from its assembly line in Spain, within 7 years.

www.businesstoday.in

or atleast

https://www.hindustantimes.com/business/tataboeing-aerospace-delivers-250th-made-in-india-ah-64-apache-fuselage-101703088006173.html

And voila, your supply issue is pretty much sorted

That is very far fetched. We don't know which parts/MSME supplier is the bottleneck in the whole supply chain. Most probably something related to Safran just like GE, so without it we would be still stuck with same production speed. Because we will only be making low tech stuff in the assembly.

For Safran leap engines

Safran Has Trouble Meeting Demand For Aircraft Engines

Aircraft engine manufacturer Safran posted Thursday rising revenues and hiked its annual profit forecast, but at the same time it has been having difficulty meeting demand to equip the top-selling planes of Airbus and Boeing.

www.barrons.com

 

[Ayan Barat]

That is very far fetched. We don't know which parts/MSME supplier is the bottleneck in the whole supply chain. Most probably something related to Safran just like GE, so without it we would be still stuck with same production speed. Because we will only be making low tech stuff in the assembly.

For Safran leap engines

Safran Has Trouble Meeting Demand For Aircraft Engines

Aircraft engine manufacturer Safran posted Thursday rising revenues and hiked its annual profit forecast, but at the same time it has been having difficulty meeting demand to equip the top-selling planes of Airbus and Boeing.

www.barrons.com

Other than engine, the biggest problem in Dassault is the lack of skilled manpower. Obviously no one would accept that and simply pass it as "supply chain issue" but there were some talks about transferring people from Falcon's line to Rafale's.
I'd assume Safran is also suffering from same problem.

I big token order from us with local manufacturing would have both solved the manpower issue and also injected enough cash that they can invest some in CapEx.

 

[Ayan Barat]

Poor IAF-TPS guys

 

[Bleh]

At this point I feel like we should simply order J-20s and end all these nonsense of RFI-RFP-L1-Cancellation-Re-RFI

Believe me, that process would be more straightforward that whatever's been happening since I don't know how many years

Hold on tho. Can we... like, order J-10s ?

 

[jaijaganath]

Hold on tho. Can we... like, order J-10s ?

Nah
We will have our mk2 in few years
Best option is j-20

 

[Bleh]

Nah
We will have our mk2 in few years
Best option is j-20

AMCA is far, how 'bout J-31 in MRCA . Amriki were offering us F-21 after selling Pak F-16. Both sides have simultaneously used Mig-21 variants as well

 

[jaijaganath]

AMCA is far, how 'bout J-31 in MRCA . Amriki were offering us F-21 after selling Pak F-16. Both sides have simultaneously used Mig-21 variants as well

Again nah
J-20 is best option as it's in service and much more proven than j-31 which is in testing phase

Spoiler

I hope we are being sarcastic here

 

[Bleh]

Spoiler

I hope we are being sarcastic here

Maybe

 

[Mangal]

Few years ago I was of the opinion that F-35 would be the best option for IAF as US MIC has the capability to deliver the aircrafts at fast rate which was crucial to compensate for the depleting strength of IAF.
We could have gone for a limited number which could have supported IAF till the time AMCA came to stage of induction i.e anywhere between 10-15 years from now.
However the way geopolitics has changed that option is no longer safe as US can not be trusted.
Rafael can't be ordered as the wait period is too long.
Euro fighter although is a great aircraft but has too many woke europan countries involved in it which again makes it a non plausible option.
Next we are left Russian aircrafts.
This is sad state of affairs. A f-up of highest order.

 

[truthsoldier]

Few years ago I was of the opinion that F-35 would be the best option for IAF as US MIC has the capability to deliver the aircrafts at fast rate which was crucial to compensate for the depleting strength of IAF.
We could have gone for a limited number which could have supported IAF till the time AMCA came to stage of induction i.e anywhere between 10-15 years from now.
However the way geopolitics has changed that option is no longer safe as US can not be trusted.
Rafael can't be ordered as the wait period is too long.
Euro fighter although is a great aircraft but has too many woke europan countries involved in it which again makes it a non plausible option.
Next we are left Russian aircrafts.
This is sad state of affairs. A f-up of highest order.

It is for govt to realise hard geopolitical realities and go whole hog on domestic fighter programmes with Russian/French engines with side by side development of Kaveri. Sanction Tedbf now instead of 4 year later, give ample funding to amca and uav projects with better accountability. Drawing out each year just 1% of annual freebie budget I.e 4 lac crore will be enough to fund our strategic projects. But only a non banana country would think above vote banks