Indian Air Force: News & Discussions

[Gurmeet]

Asymmetrically you can put up deterrence just like how China itself put deterrence via Rocket Force against USA Or how the Soviets defended their Borders via huge Scuds Arsenal. But last time I saw Pralay, Shaurya, Nirbhay numbers doesn't exceed 100 in total where as we need a minimum of 10,000. Every competent Military facing Superior Enemy did this- China, North Korea, Russia, Soviet Union, Iran. It's Basic Common Sense.

There is no such thing as "Wartime Production" but only "Stockpiles". Enemy's targets on Day-1 would be Ammunition Factories. You don't even have to knock out FALs, just knock out some Fuze factory and your entire Production is screwed. Idiots cite US WW2/ Ukraine War examples where Wartime production is going on. But entire India from Border of China puny 3500-km Combat Radius and Range.

Genrols gave like 10 Missiles as if they are buying a Samosa and absolutely living in La La Land. They think enemy will allow us make weapons in wartime and any conflict would be restricted to border skirmishes only.

Not all stockphile happens on paper also wait for our Integreated defense commands.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Shelling money thinking you've an accurate reasoning to do so given the value you'd be getting...but then realising the values are suboptimal and you've overpaid.

Well, only fish eaters perhaps understand if slaughtering catfish is worth.
Anyways, since beginning i'm focussing only on +/- points of each platform w/o concluding anything.

Even if we ignore everything from shape, angle, surface finish then also the air intake itself of J-20/35 vastly surpasses that of Su-57. (Even with those janky grids)

Agreed, i pointed that out already as a -ve point. IDK about J-20 but F-22 & F-35 diagrams & discussions indicate that even after serpentine duct they have blocker grills.

R-77s were an excellent missile when they're introduced in 1995 but then they kind of became stagnant. We've first hand experience of feeling the shortcomings of R-77, otherwise which country develops a BVR-AAM (Astra) before a WVR-AAM? Read about its problems in IAF service
As for PL-15, they've a range more than 200km. Because they use dual pulse motor and Astra Mk-2, another dual pulse motor rocket already achieves 150km with smaller diameter motor than PL-15.

I mentioned the M version. I told you many times- take your time to read, don't rush.

A 30-15cm band radar would give you a vague idea of where a bogie might be but nothing more than than. For proper fire control you needed finer bands

hence the side radar on cheek is quoted X-band. The 4 L-band antennas on slats & levocns are more than 30cm/1ft.

In five days we'd be in 2025, no one's going to use WVR with their manned fighter anymore. It's foolish to even think about it when countries are working on AIM-174 type 400km ranged BVR-AAMs.

I wouldn't use the word FOOLISH overconfidently & impulsively bcoz this is Su-57 Vs J-20 & neither of them will get rid of their SWB (Side Weapons Bay) & CCMs, not for 1-2 decades at least. Missiles, countermeasures, tactics evolve, so no guarantee that battle will end in BVR only. So short range contingency has to be planned & not planning would be overconfident. Hence research is going on MSDM/SACM/CUDA kind of VSR-AAMs, even the Chinese infographic shows it.



Be it AIM-174, R-37, AIM-260, LREW, PL-17/20/21, etc, BVR-AAMS, even with dual pulse motors firing in terminal phase, they don't guarantee kill. They have NEZ (No Escape Zone), depends on many static & dynamic parameters like altitude, orientation & speed of launcher & target, 2nd pulse firing time, evasion capability of target, etc.


For example, if Meteor AAM max range is considered 300Km then its quoted NEZ is 60Km, which is just 20% of max range, if 80Km then 26%. So just making big bulky VLR-AAMs won't help ALONE. It has always been & will always be a Tom & Jerry game.

None of the parameters you mentioned are "generational gap defining" parameter that can't be replicated in previous generation fighters.
In prior posts I've explained in detail the problems with defining 6th gen fighters.

Business leader always dictates the characteristics & version #, although competitors are there to choose from.
Hence like i said, you or anybody are most welcome to refine the table, instead of lines & paragraphs, dificult to find & remember in forums.
But i have already mentioned that some features can be MLUed to previous gen. But there is a limit otherwise all previous gen jets from 1st,2nd,3rd would be MLUed & used today w/o making new airframe.

Weird license raaj era mindset statment, especially when sh*t has already hit the fan and we want maximum contribution from our MIC+ to get whatever necessary.

Typical impulsive youngster phrases due to lack of sufficient 1st hand industrial experience. I've always said that in our populous country, it is urgent to absorb army of college grads into industry, huge opportunities, othwise massive unemployment can lead to civil war. But these tycoons like Ambani, Adani, Tata, etc just wanted to bag deal to mae 4gen jets, not showing interest in engine R&D, etc. Some of them are politically inclined. There are social problems too. All these things leead to security issues. A Govt. facility is protected by Army, CISF, etc, but private firm security is not up to that mark. But if the private firms agree to work under constant vigilance of Army, Intelligence units, then bigger cunk of projects can be handed over. This is my personal opinion, others are free to disagree politely.

 

[Nutcracker]

View: https://x.com/shiv_cybersurg/status/1872487535932477782

 

[AbRaj]

Here's my 2 cent

• First and foremost, no need to panic; China isn't going to attack anytime soon. History has been witness to it, whenever we panic we start wasting money. Ordering Victrix Scorpio, AK-203 instead of TAR, we were all set to order Sprut-SD.

• Engines; doesn't matter China is flying 6th gen or 7th...our priority is just engines. Aircrafts are built around an engine, as soon as it's there everything else just falls into their places. So do whatever is necessary, buy EJ200/M88 IPR, hire their scientist for consultancy but get a PROPER Kaveri as soon as possible.
They keyword here is proper, full fledged 100kN engine; can't afford the usual dry, wet, Mk-1, Mk-1A shenanigans anymore. Sh*t has already hit the fan.

• Work on AMCA without engines; not a big deal, in WW2 USA was assembling bombers without engines as there were issues with engines, but they didn't waste time waiting for engines to come. No need to proceed with the existing design of AMCA, no point in getting an assembly line that'll produce already obsolete fighters. Redesign it as soon as possible, if nothing else then just increase the magazine depth. Assembly jigs are yet to be made, it's the only window we've for modification. Once those are made you can't change the design.
The threat now requires an AHCA, AMCA with 4 BVR-AAMs won't cut through.

• Force IAF and IN to ORCA , no need to waste money and time in Mk-1, Mk-1A, Mk-2, MMRCA...ORCA is a good design can be used by IAF without even a proper air-force version. Fast track is as soon as possible, get another production line. 6th gen doesn't mean 4th gen has become obsolete, from China to USA everyone has plans to induct a new 4th gen fighter to boost squadron number. We'll too need something to replace the mess of MiGs, Jags, Mirages.

• AWACS fleet, still not interested? Yesterday only I mentioned how easy it is to make one and we're still doing a pinch of Netra, some Phalcon, few Airbus...select any plane, slap a radar and order atleast two squadrons of it. This might be the biggest defence we can create for an attacking PLA group.

• And as you said, try joining some international 6th gen program. Accept the fact that they're ahead of us in terms of technology and try collaborating with them. Even if we don't buy the actual plane we can get bits and pieces of different technologies to incorporate them into our next generations of planes.

• Stop Super Sukhoi, enough of toying with Super Sukhoi since I don't know how many years so now stop that circus. Simply ask private industry to present their bids on how much advanced they can make Su-30MkIs. They do ScrewdriverGiri, ToT, comes up with in-house research doesn't matter, it's up to them. You just ensure you get maximum bang for your buck.
Start slapping the biggest possible Uttam configuration on Sukhois as soon as possible, we already have SDFR based Astra-3 just need a radar that'll complement it and you'll have a formidable defence.

Everything here is stagnated since decades and no one is being questioned including Hyper-nationalistic Modi zee and All the Air chiefs that came and gone with their fat paycheques and pensions

 

[AbRaj]

China launched:
02 6th Gen Fighters
01 New Gen AWACS
Type 076 LHA


Meanwhile Indian MoD (Defence Secretary) launched:

Post from Bharat Shakti

Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh launched the Rashtraparv website & app on Good Governance Day.

youtube.com

Ninda ji is a true patriot. Under his command our forces are achieving new milestones every other day.

 

[Gurmeet]

There are numerous problems with American MIC ranging from heavily bloated structure to lobbying...but one thing that you'd never find is underestimating the enemy. They overestimate enemy's capabilities whenever something crosses a certain threshold and then they scramble their a**es to over-compensate.

MiG-25 is the classic example; guessed its capabilities, made F-15 to counter those, MiG-25 turned out be grossly overestimated and now USAF is left with one of finest air dominance fighter.
If we look at modern example then NGSW. Again estimated that adversaries would be fielding longer ranged firearms and sport BPJs, made something to counter that, both the assumptions turned out to be overestimated and now they're left with perhaps the most advanced optics-caliber combination ever fielded.

It's not like China beat US to a 6th gen fighter, USAF has allegedly already flown multiple airframes. But still when they saw yesterday's video they must have immediately went back to drawing board and maybe even now when I'm typing this message they're working on what they can add on NGAD to counter any future, not just current challenges from the adversary in an effort to maintain overmatch.

This is something that one would rarely find in our MIC.

• Kargil happened in 1999 and we realised the need for an attack helicopter that can effectively operate in Himalayas.
• Up until 2006 nothing concrete has happened but the requirement was still a helicopter based on 1999's requirement.
• First prototype flew in 2010 but still emphasized around one single 10 year old requirement.
• In 2024, when finally the orders where placed then also it was for a platform addressing single 25 years old requirement.

In 25 years no-one thought to just stop for a moment, take a breath and modify it in a way that it addresses challenges of atleast 2020. Just uprate the engines a bit, add a 30mm gun, increase hardpoints to 8 (it's fine it won't be able to carry missiles on all of them in the Himalayas but atleast have them in the first place so that we can use them for say plains), slap four AESA panels around to fuselage to get atleast some degree of Longbow performance. But no, we'll go though the whole process of developing and acquiring an already obsoleted platform. Then we'll issue RFP for a Mk-II.

I'm pretty sure this exact thing is going to happen with AMCA.

America f-16 says hi

 

[Gurmeet]

Everything here is stagnated since decades and no one is being questioned including Hyper-nationalistic Modi zee and All the Air chiefs that came and gone with their fat paycheques and pensions

If you want to play politics there are many threads in there.

 

[705-Lira]

China launched:
02 6th Gen Fighters
01 New Gen AWACS
Type 076 LHA


Meanwhile Indian MoD (Defence Secretary) launched:

Post from Bharat Shakti

Defence Secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh launched the Rashtraparv website & app on Good Governance Day.

youtube.com

Well I guess people are forgetting that just a couple of days ago the Indian Navy recieved 3 locally manufactured warships:-
1) INS Vagsheer, last boat of Kalvari class
2) INS Nilgiri, first ship of P17A class of frigates
3) INS Surat, last ship of P15B class of destroyers

Although it isn't comparable to what China has done, but these things are no walkover.

 

[705-Lira]

America f-16 says hi

Let the Americans deliver the brand new F-16 Block 70/72 jets to Bulgaria and Taiwan.
The delivery of these jets is long overdue considering the orders were placed in 2018-19.

 

[Gurmeet]

View attachment 19809

Still doesn't counters his arguments.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

View attachment 19809

Continue to show impulsive & uncivilised behavior, in an internaltional arena, not my loss. Someday people far younger than you will do this to you.
I already decided to to ignore you but you replied 1on1. Yet i tried to discuss nicely, I merely conveyed the diagrams, slides. So the BLABBERING goes to the scientists & engineers who made those.
@Blademaster how many times you guys warn users before ban?

 

[Ayan Barat]

America f-16 says hi

• introduced in late 70s
• one of pioneers of Energy-Maneuverability theory
• for many decades remained one of most potent single engine multirole fighter
• USAF took last deliveries in 2005
• would be retired in next two decades
• more than 4,500 produced
• modernized versions like Soufa and Vipers are still a very competent platform

So yeah, tell me more about F-16s

 

[Ayan Barat]

Continue to show impulsive & uncivilised behavior, in an internaltional arena, not my loss. Someday people far younger than you will do this to you.
I already decided to to ignore you but you replied 1on1. Yet i tried to discuss nicely, I merely conveyed the diagrams, slides. So the BLABBERING goes to the scientists & engineers who made those.
@Blademaster how many times you guys warn users before ban?

Did you think even once why I posted the pic of that specific gentleman, quoting only that part of your message that said government establishment are more secure than private ones?

By mentioning one specific Mod and asking for banning with indication that you two have already discussed this before. Not to mention the fact that I was banned for freaking two years by the said Mod, before getting unbanned
So it seems the gloves are finally off.
Isn't it dear Sir?

 

[Gurmeet]

Did you think even once why I posted the pic of that specific gentleman, quoting only that part of your message that said government establishment are more secure than private ones?

By mentioning one specific Mod and asking for banning with indication that you two have already discussed this before. Not to mention the fact that I was banned for freaking two years by the said Mod, before getting unbanned
So it seems the gloves are finally off.
Isn't it dear Sir?

mate i just joined today. He is right regarding the security issue we aren't not high enough in the tech stack to implement security for our private firms.

 

[Gurmeet]

• introduced in late 70s
• one of pioneers of Energy-Maneuverability theory
• for many decades remained one of most potent single engine multirole fighter
• USAF took last deliveries in 2005
• would be retired in next two decades
• more than 4,500 produced
• modernized versions like Soufa and Vipers are still a very competent platform

So yeah, tell me more about F-16s

No the argument was LCH was outdated. It isn't.

 

[Corvus Splendens]

Well, only fish eaters perhaps understand if slaughtering catfish is worth.
Anyways, since beginning i'm focussing only on +/- points of each platform w/o concluding anything.


Agreed, i pointed that out already as a -ve point. IDK about J-20 but F-22 & F-35 diagrams & discussions indicate that even after serpentine duct they have blocker grills.


I mentioned the M version. I told you many times- take your time to read, don't rush.
View attachment 19797


hence the side radar on cheek is quoted X-band. The 4 L-band antennas on slats & levocns are more than 30cm/1ft.
View attachment 19801
View attachment 19802


I wouldn't use the word FOOLISH overconfidently & impulsively bcoz this is Su-57 Vs J-20 & neither of them will get rid of their SWB (Side Weapons Bay) & CCMs, not for 1-2 decades at least. Missiles, countermeasures, tactics evolve, so no guarantee that battle will end in BVR only. So short range contingency has to be planned & not planning would be overconfident. Hence research is going on MSDM/SACM/CUDA kind of VSR-AAMs, even the Chinese infographic shows it.
View attachment 19805
View attachment 19807

Be it AIM-174, R-37, AIM-260, LREW, PL-17/20/21, etc, BVR-AAMS, even with dual pulse motors firing in terminal phase, they don't guarantee kill. They have NEZ (No Escape Zone), depends on many static & dynamic parameters like altitude, orientation & speed of launcher & target, 2nd pulse firing time, evasion capability of target, etc.
View attachment 19803

For example, if Meteor AAM max range is considered 300Km then its quoted NEZ is 60Km, which is just 20% of max range, if 80Km then 26%. So just making big bulky VLR-AAMs won't help ALONE. It has always been & will always be a Tom & Jerry game.


Business leader always dictates the characteristics & version #, although competitors are there to choose from.
Hence like i said, you or anybody are most welcome to refine the table, instead of lines & paragraphs, dificult to find & remember in forums.
But i have already mentioned that some features can be MLUed to previous gen. But there is a limit otherwise all previous gen jets from 1st,2nd,3rd would be MLUed & used today w/o making new airframe.


Typical impulsive youngster phrases due to lack of sufficient 1st hand industrial experience. I've always said that in our populous country, it is urgent to absorb army of college grads into industry, huge opportunities, othwise massive unemployment can lead to civil war. But these tycoons like Ambani, Adani, Tata, etc just wanted to bag deal to mae 4gen jets, not showing interest in engine R&D, etc. Some of them are politically inclined. There are social problems too. All these things leead to security issues. A Govt. facility is protected by Army, CISF, etc, but private firm security is not up to that mark. But if the private firms agree to work under constant vigilance of Army, Intelligence units, then bigger cunk of projects can be handed over. This is my personal opinion, others are free to disagree politely.

Mate all of this is fine and dandy. But it doesn't matter when the Su-57 gets detected right after it leaves the airfield. The Su-57 is nowhere near stealthy enough to make good use of it's long range radar and missiles. It's like a rifleman trying to hunt down a sniper through wide open ground. How far the Su-57 can see is irrelevant twaddle when it can't stay undetected while closing range to any point near the minimum NEZ of the missiles it carries.

 

[Ayan Barat]

mate i just joined today. He is right regarding the security issue we aren't not high enough in the tech stack to implement security for our private firms.

You've goverment run OFBs making Ashani. And you've ASTR Defence making ATAL. What are you going to do? Shut down ASTR and keep buying Ashani because you've this prejudice that there's security risk in private industry?

You've HAL making seats from scrap. And you've like of Sameer Joshi Sir and Baban Deo Sir leading the industry on the forefront. So? Stop them from doing their groundbreaking work just because you think there's a security risk in private sector.

Which private company was Pradeep Kurulkar working for by the way when one of the most bombshell espionage case happen here in India?

Absurdities ki bhi hadd hoti hai bhai

No the argument was LCH was outdated. It isn't.

Wake me up when it flies with 16x Hellfire class missiles

 

[shade2]

Well I guess people are forgetting that just a couple of days ago the Indian Navy recieved 3 locally manufactured warships:-
1) INS Vagsheer, last boat of Kalvari class
2) INS Nilgiri, first ship of P17A class of frigates
3) INS Surat, last ship of P15B class of destroyers

Although it isn't comparable to what China has done, but these things are no walkover.

It's much better compared to the very low bar that the other two Imported Services have set, and commendable that they manage to get out their ships without any actual pressure( long time for Chings to appear in IOR vs Chings sitting in Tibet for IA and IAF )

Still they too have a lot to do, but atleast they are in the right direction.

As i've said before the Genrols/Air Marshlols will be taught a very painful lesson on the battlefield and unlike what they think it will not only be the Govt which will be splashed with the muck of defeat, how much ever they and their patrons in media and bureaucracy may try to spin in.

 

[shade2]

View attachment 19819

Just saw this tweet, is this actually true?

Go ask him in twitter replies

Chings had the J-11( Su-27 clone ) inducted in 1998 onwards and the J-10 single engine fighter inducted from 2006 onwards

We today have SQUADRONS DECLINING SAAARS, EMERGANCY PROCOOOR NOW!, doubt the PLAAF has ever faced such a thing.

Mostly because CCP-PLA are on the same page most of the time

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Mate all of this is fine and dandy. But it doesn't matter when the Su-57 gets detected right after it leaves the airfield. The Su-57 is nowhere near stealthy enough to make good use of it's long range radar and missiles. It's like a rifleman trying to hunt down a sniper through wide open ground. How far the Su-57 can see is irrelevant twaddle when it can't stay undetected while closing range to any point near the minimum NEZ of the missiles it carries.

So where did i conclude anything? I'm just putting things as they are.
But Stealth is a defensive feature & radar+missiles is offensive.
If Su-57 is so helpless then what will MKI, Rafale, LCA, MWF do, especially if J-20 attacks on a cloudy night?
If rifleman is fully bullet-proof then what good is a sniper? The 5gen jets are stealthy but not the missiles. How many times will i say that it is Tom & Jerry game?
- MAWS+IRST can catch missile plume in mid course phase. Big missile, bigger plume.
- A big missile has bigger RCS. AESA radar can pick it up.


- A BVR missile also follows Leading intercept point by which it can be fooled on a wrong trajectory. It also depends how smartly the missile has been programmed.

- Pilots try to go U turn or low level to introduce ground clutter for missile, terrain masking if possible.
- Once a missile comes down early it has to fight dense air resistance, so then pilot can continue low level or rise to higher altitude to deplete missile's kinetic energy.
- If missile uses active terminal homing, RWR can catch it & EW antennas can try to jam it. The pilot can make U turn & outrun the missile.
- If missile goes passive homing or home-on-jamming then jet's AESA antennas can also go passive. But by this time the general direction of missile is nown so pilot can still make U-turn.
- A rear AESA can just flash narrow beams to update situation


- Su-57 may not be satisfactorily stealthy from front head on, but what about angled approach & side profile?